Best companion mic for a Zoom H4N?

[justonwo]

The built in mics sound pretty nice in general, but I'm wondering if I wouldn't get better recordings with a second mic (in addition to or instead of the built in mics)?

[riorider]

Hey Juston... I'm nothing like a "very experienced recorder" here but I've used my Audix OM-2s, and Audix VX5 with the h4n with very good results - compared a/b with the built-in mics.

The ability to change the placement and "aim" of the externals allows me to bring out better tone in the recordings.

The OM2s are really SM58 type vocal mics - better in my humble opinion but at that level. The VX5 is a really nice condenser.

Cheers,

Phil

[Doug Young]

Yes, I'd suggest trying external mics. The built-in mics aren't bad, but using external mics allows you to use different mic positions that you can't do with the built in mics (like spaced pairs) as well as just using different mics, with different patterns and so on. I often record with both spaced pairs and X/Y, to give myself a choice, or to blend to taste, and you could do that too with the H4n mics+external. You can also try the builtin mics and a pickup in the external inputs, which can be useful in some cases. Lots of options, all worth trying. As far as "best" mic, that's hard to answer, there are hundreds of choices in all price ranges.

[DonM]

J:
There really isn't any 'best' mic, since every situation, budget and application is different.

I record for PRX, NPR, CD and broadcast. Typically the H4N is on my two bus as a safety capture. A couple of times I needed that safety.

HERE is a recording of the H4N with two DPA 4090's in front with a Focusrite preamp. Omni by the way is the pattern on the DPA's

HERE is a recording that I just did this weekend very quickly of a string quintet for the local NPR affiliate (WQED-FM) broadcast on this Wednesday. CAD E70's in card pattern are in front of the H4N and I am using the internal preamps on the H4N in this recording.

The H4N also performs well with my AKG 414's. I think I've thrown just about every ldc and sdc mic I own in front of it. I've never used a dynamic mic nor a ribbon on the unit but I suspect it would be fine. Possibly the preamps might not have enough gain for some ribbons, but I'd put a preamp in front of the H4N if I were to try a ribbon.

Best

-D

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by justonwo

The built in mics sound pretty nice in general, but I'm wondering if I wouldn't get better recordings with a second mic (in addition to or instead of the built in mics)?

Hi Juston...

I can tell you I get better recordings with my Peluso CEMC6 matched pair than the built in mics on my H4, but then I'd expect to.

I don't own a remote recorder expecting it to match the quality of my best mics, and I match the job, interface, and medium to the job at hand (kind of like my cameras).

If I need a professional grade recording, I'm not going to bring my Zoom recorders unless it's so remote and difficult to access the location (or time and space is so severely limited) that I have no other options.

But for casual really good recordings, the Zooms do a great job right out of the box, and if I need to step up a level or even two, I can supplement the gear I bring to the recording.

[ChuckS]

I've got a Zoom H4 and use it without external mics if I need something quick or a really simple setup (recording lessons, etc). For capturing the sound of the acoustic guitar I ususually prefer recording with a spaced pair (or mid-side) instead of X-Y, so I generally use external mics with the H4. I have an Oktava MC-012 and a Cascade Fat Head ribbon mic. As long as I'm setting up mics I most often also use an external preamp (Event EMP-1 or M-Audio DMP3); the ribbon mic needs a lot of gain so the external preamp is required for it. Using external mics also makes it more convenient to use the H4, as it can be set next to me so its controls are easily reached.

[justonwo]

Here are a couple of more questions since we're on the subject of recording with the H4n.

1) My recordings ALWAYS seem to come out quiet. I set the levels to prevent clipping at the loudest part of the song, but they still seem to come out muted. Is this just the nature of recording acoustic guitar with so much "quiet" empty space (i.e. no other instruments)?

2) I don't want to get really fancy with recording setup, but what are the basic characteristics of a good space for recording? Is it impossible to get a decent recording without some kind of wall treatment? I don't really have the luxury of a dedicated recording space. I have my small, closet-sized office and my living room.

3) Is it advisable to use 2 external mics in combination with the 2 internal mics on the H4n (i.e. 4 tracks)? What is a good placement for this kind of setup?

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by justonwo

1) My recordings ALWAYS seem to come out quiet. I set the levels to prevent clipping at the loudest part of the song, but they still seem to come out muted. Is this just the nature of recording acoustic guitar with so much "quiet" empty space (i.e. no other instruments)?

This comes up frequently here. Especially if you have very percussive parts, the peak-to-quiet ratio will be high, and your overall level may be low. You can deal with it in mixing (add limiting or compression), editing (pull down the peaks), or playing (try to maintain more constistent levels). Just in general, you have to figure out what you want to do with dynamics. If your performance has very loud and very quiet sections, then the soft parts will have a lower level, as expected. You should be able to get plenty of level with an H4n, tho.

2) I don't want to get really fancy with recording setup, but what are the basic characteristics of a good space for recording? Is it impossible to get a decent recording without some kind of wall treatment?

Yes, it's possible, tho a lot depends on your space. All things being equal, room treatment is likely to help, but a reasonably furnished room, combined with close micing can often work pretty well for acoustic guitar. "Characteristics" is a complicated topic, but you generally want a room that isn't too lively - no obvious echoes, and that has no frequency peaks - causing booming notes and so on. Search on "acoustic treatment", "room acoustics", etc, and you can find more info than you're likely to want about what makes a good recording space. Check out Fran Guidry's recording blog:

http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/

I also have some links and some arcane detail of what you probably want to avoid :-) on my site:

http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/studio.php

Here's a recent recording of mine, done in a 10x12 spare bedroom (not the studio space described above), with no sound treatment, carpet on the floors, drywall walls, not much furniture. I recorded the audio with an H4n with a pair of external mics. This is the sound after You Tube gets done mangling it a bit, it sounds better on the original non-youtube'd recording:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WUL_zBhNPs

3) Is it advisable to use 2 external mics in combination with the 2 internal mics on the H4n (i.e. 4 tracks)? What is a good placement for this kind of setup?

I'd save using 4 mics at once until you have captured a great sound with 2 mics. It can be useful, but it's also more complicated, and offers more ways to encounter problems.

[Doug Young]

Justin, you're local, stop by some time, and I can perhaps help you with some recording.

[justonwo]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Justin, you're local, stop by some time, and I can perhaps help you with some recording.

Oh man, that would be fantastic. I will definitely take you up on that offer. How generous!

[riorider]

Doug Young
Justin, you're local, stop by some time, and I can perhaps help you with some recording.

Juston
Oh man, that would be fantastic. I will definitely take you up on that offer. How generous!

Is this a great forum or WHAT!?!!

Cheers all,

Phil

[islandguitar]

Heck of a nice gesture, Doug!

[justonwo]

So one thing I've noticed about my recording with the built-in mics. The right channel (the one pointed at the headstock) is about 8 dB lower than the left channel. This makes sense, since the volume is going to be higher near the soundboard. But that makes for an unbalanced recording.

Since I can't independently adjust the levels of the two mics, there will always be a mismatch. How does one deal with this problem?

I took one recording I made, converted the stereo track to two mono tracks, normalized the volume of each, panned them left and right, then mixed them back together. MUCH louder and more satisfying sound this way, but seems like a lot of effort. Is this the normal post-processing required?

Are both of the channels in the stereo track normally recorded at center stereo? Is the normal thing to pan one track to the right and one to the left or to leave them both centered?

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by justonwo

So one thing I've noticed about my recording with the built-in mics. The right channel (the one pointed at the headstock) is about 8 dB lower than the left channel. This makes sense, since the volume is going to be higher near the soundboard. But that makes for an unbalanced recording.

Where are you placing the Zoom? I'd try right in front of the guitar, straddling the sound hole. Adjust it vertically to reduce boominess - right level with the top is usually a good spot for me (tho I'm not crazy about X/Y - hard t get the right balance). Basically, you have to find a spot and angle where the levels are balanced.

Is this the normal post-processing required?

I try to get balance set in the recording phase. Adjusting levels is normal. And you don't usually want to record too hot - leave some headroom, and bring it up during mixing/mastering.

Are both of the channels in the stereo track normally recorded at center stereo? Is the normal thing to pan one track to the right and one to the left or to leave them both centered?

X/Y produces a natural stereo image exactly as is - leave each channel separate, don't "mix" them, they stay hard left and right if you want the natural stereo effect of X/Y. Of course, you can play with that, narrowing or widening, if you need to to get the sound you want

[justonwo]

Great suggestions. So you're saying to try aligning the mics horizontally with the sound hole and vertically with the top edge of the guitar? Adjust to taste to get the stereo balance correct?

So I've always tried to adjust the levels to just hit 0 dB at the loudest point in my song. You're saying not to adjust the gain so high and then normalize the track afterwards when mixing?

These are great suggestions. Thanks!