Replace GrandTune with Waverly

[Monsoon1]

Originally Posted by JayBee1404

If the headstock hole size is different by only a few thousandths of an inch, wouldn't swabbing glue (CA or wood-glue) around the inside of the hole work? Allow it to dry overnight, check if the smaller bushing fits, if not repeat the glue-swabbing/drying process and retry.

I've used this method several times to snug up the fit of Waverley bushing in over-large holes.

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.

Considering that the hole sizes might vary on the same guitar, this might be the best approach.
Well, using feeler gauges as shim stock would also work, but if it's an issue of different hole sizes, OP would have to jump through a lot of hoops to get the different shim sizes sorted out.
Whereas with the CA, enough coatings of it, and the bushings would fit just fine.

[JayBee1404]

Just be careful not to get CA on the finish - it eats nitrocellulose!. I've used wood-glue because it doesn't harm finish and can be wiped off with a damp cloth.

[Bruce Sexauer]

The installation solution JayBee describes in post #28 is not talked about much, but it is correct and very important. It solves installation issues responsible for tight feeling Waverlys or GrandTunes. The problem is exacerbated if one installs Waverlys in place of GrandTunes because the loose bushing allows the tuner post to pull that much further toward the nut which binds the gears.

I am surprised to hear so much criticism of GrandTunes as I have used about 50 sets now w/o trouble in installation nor with customer feedback. I cannot say the same re Waverlys.

[Mad Rose]

I would just ream out the existing GT Bushings until the Waverly shafts fit in (w/o any slop). The difference is ever so slight. .012” And not mess w/ the Hdstk bores.

Aren’t the shafts on Grovers’ 18:1 Sta-tites 6mm?
Of the 6 sets of Sta-tires on my acoustics, I’ve yet to have any problems.

[Brucebubs]

Originally Posted by Mad Rose

I would just ream out the existing GT Bushings until the Waverly shafts fit in (w/o any slop). The difference is ever so slight. .012” And not mess w/ the Hdstk bores.

Aren’t the shafts on Grovers’ 18:1 Sta-tites 6mm?
Of the 6 sets of Sta-tires on my acoustics, I’ve yet to have any problems.

Looks like Grover Sta-Tites have a 6.32mm shaft - the exact same as Waverly!
However, Grover bushing is made for 8.74mm hole - Waverly is 8.64mm.

So the swap from Grovers to Waverly would be really easy - just leave the Grover bushings in there, the Waverly tuners have the same diameter string shaft.

[drive-south]

Wade Hampton Miller will be along any time now.

[Brucebubs]

Originally Posted by drive-south

Wade Hampton Miller will be along any time now.

... and he'll recommend Gotoh tuners ... which might be perfect!

The Gotoh open gear tuners drawing I found ( pictured below left) shows their push-fit bushing flares up from 8.15mm to 8.9mm which would be a perfect size to replace the 8.8mm Schaller Grand Tune bushings.(pictured below right)

Locating screw holes are near perfect swap with the Schaller Grand Tunes too!

[tadol]

Sounds like a bad installation - changing brands or swapping bushings or whatever will not fix the root problem -

[JC.]

For anybody interested, I've just replaced Schaller Grand Tunes with open backed Gotoh's on my Martin dread (a Custom Shop HD 28 style, bought off the shelf).

They are drop-in except for the fact that the bushings needed swapping and the Gotoh bushings are a somewhat tight fit - I had no problem squeezing them into the holes with mole grips but not everybody would be comfortable doing that.

The old bushings just push out with a screwdriver.

Once in though, the screw holes (and screws) match and the Gotoh's are much smoother than the Schaller which I found gritty. I played with the Schallers after removing them to test the notion that it was just faulty installation....but they are still a little gritty to turn (though probably less then when installed).

[Mandobart]

I have a 2017 HD-28 with Schaller Grand Tune machines. I ordered a set of Waverly's recently during Stew-Mac's big sale. The rollers (posts) on the Waverly's are too big to fit in the Schaller bushings. Also the Waverly bushings are too big to fit the headstock holes drilled for Schaller's. Easy to fix - you don't need to plug and drill.

In most cases bushings from one mfr will NOT fit another mfr's tuners. In my case I just need to ream out the Martin with a .340 bit to fit the larger Waverly bushings.

Also, the mounting screw holes do not align perfectly with those drilled for the Schaller's. These you do need to fill and re-drill.

[UncleJesse]

Originally Posted by Mandobart

I have a 2017 HD-28 with Schaller Grand Tune machines. I ordered a set of Waverly's recently during Stew-Mac's big sale. The rollers (posts) on the Waverly's are too big to fit in the Schaller bushings. Also the Waverly bushings are too big to fit the headstock holes drilled for Schaller's. Easy to fix - you don't need to plug and drill.

In most cases bushings from one mfr will NOT fit another mfr's tuners. In my case I just need to ream out the Martin with a .340 bit to fit the larger Waverly bushings.

Also, the mounting screw holes do not align perfectly with those drilled for the Schaller's. These you do need to fill and re-drill.

I believe you can just replace the bushings with these and not drill. Maybe I'm wrong, I had a tech tell me this.

https://www.stewmac.com/parts-and-ha...r-bushing.html

[Mandobart]

Originally Posted by UncleJesse

I believe you can just replace the bushings with these and not drill. Maybe I'm wrong, I had a tech tell me this.

https://www.stewmac.com/parts-and-ha...r-bushing.html

I would not do this. The Waverly bushing OD is .342" - the Schaller is .330" (I measured all parts with a dial caliper). The headstock holes are drilled to fit the Schaller's, not the Waverly's. Your tech can probably *make* it fit, but I would worry about putting that much stress x 6 bushings on the headstock. You're just asking for a crack or split maybe in the next day, week, monrh, next cold or dry spell, etc.

My instruments are important enough to me to do the work myself vs leaving it to a "tech" of dubious knowledge/experience/training.

[UncleJesse]

Originally Posted by Mandobart

I would not do this. The Waverly bushing OD is .342" - the Schaller is .330" (I measured all parts with a dial caliper). The headstock holes are drilled to fit the Schaller's, not the Waverly's. Your tech can probably *make* it fit, but I would worry about putting that much stress x 6 bushings on the headstock. You're just asking for a crack or split maybe in the next day, week, monrh, next cold or dry spell, etc.

My instruments are important enough to me to do the work myself vs leaving it to a "tech" of dubious knowledge/experience/training.

I wasn't challenging your method. I just honestly don't know enough about these, but aren't these different than the Waverly bushings that come with a set of Waverly tuners? I thought these were designed to fit in the place of a Schaller sized hole? I honestly don't know so I was asking just for my own knowledge. I'd like to swap the Schallers on my HD28 too.

Although it looks like the reamer for Waverly sized holes is only about $20 on Stewmac.

[tadol]

Originally Posted by Mandobart

I would not do this. The Waverly bushing OD is .342" - the Schaller is .330" (I measured all parts with a dial caliper). The headstock holes are drilled to fit the Schaller's, not the Waverly's. Your tech can probably *make* it fit, but I would worry about putting that much stress x 6 bushings on the headstock. You're just asking for a crack or split maybe in the next day, week, monrh, next cold or dry spell, etc.

My instruments are important enough to me to do the work myself vs leaving it to a "tech" of dubious knowledge/experience/training.

I don’t think .012”, or 0.3mm, is gonna be the source of a major failure - to remove .006 (0.15 mm) from the sides of a hole is little more than rolling up a strip of sandpaper and sanding the interior a bit - very little if mahogany, maybe a bit more, if maple. Then, just test the fit. A dial caliper is a nice tool, if you understand your material - and if you’re working metal to high precision, its mandatory. Wood, not as much.

Instruments have been built and repaired for a few centuries now, relying on the skills of craftspeople who probably didn’t have dial calipers and CNC machines - If you trust your luthier, and aren’t prepared to just do it yourself, I’d not be overly concerned -

[Mandobart]

Originally Posted by tadol

Instruments have been built and repaired for a few centuries now, relying on the skills of craftspeople who probably didn’t have dial calipers and CNC machines - If you trust your luthier, and aren’t prepared to just do it yourself, I’d not be overly concerned -

Sure people have been building instruments for several hundred years, and most of that we used wooden pegs in un-bushed wooden headstocks. The use of steel strings and metal tuning machines is relatively recent. The use of metal bushings for rollers is even more recent - pretty much since the last half of the last century.

Metal usually wins in a contest with wood. If you're going to spend the time and/or money to swap out tuners I recommend using the tools and methods that are accepted as standard by those in the craft. Or don't - its of no consequence to me. I think we've all seen hack jobs performed by "guitar techs."