Pretty undeniable

[ManyMartinMan]

Oh, and the recorded sound from that Taylor was deplorable. i didn't find the other guitars (he wasn't good at stating what he was playing) a lot better. Just better.

[Dbone]

Originally Posted by sakar12

Good comments, Juston.

I'll just add that I own two V Class guitars, the 717 and 814ce dlx.

The 717 wows me every time I pick it up.

The 814 is a bit more fickle. I put some 80/20s on it last week and it became way too chimey, jangly, thin. This morning I went back to EJ16s and within one song it reminded me what I loved about it when I got it.

Same with my D-18GE, except the opposite. A thick pick or the wrong strings and it's a muddy mess. 80/20s and it's woody, crisp, loud, beautiful, a lifetime keeper.

I just really think many guitars, and especially Taylors, need to be experimented with.

Out of the 28 guitars I've owned, only my Lowden has sounded great (to me) no matter the pick, string brand, or song.

To be fair, I have seen many references about these 717s impressing...I'm pretty sure I had a 317 in my hands but not a 717.

[sakar12]

I like 317s too, but not with Elixirs. The right strings on a GP is just stunning.

[gfirob]

In a big picture sense he wasn’t just comparing Eastman and Taylor guitars (and that Taylor really sounded like it came from the shallow end of the pool in this case) but the comparison of all mass produced CNC dominant American guitars (including Martin and Gibson) to Chinese guitars. And in sound, fit and finish (at least as much as we can tell on a Youtube video) the genuinely hand built guitars from China were superior and of course you get way more for your money.

So with a partnership between a high end American company and a low-wage Chinese manufacturer we could be seeing a real ice-pick aimed at the heart of mass produced American guitars. I mean, these Eastman guitars seem to be very, very good (and I am a Martin owner).

We have seen in other products that the Chinese have upped their game in terms of quality control and marketing and at some point there is just not going to be any point in spending 3 times as much for a guitar just to have it made in the United States with a famous brand. Bragging rights are great, and sometimes a brand name looms large in our dream guitar visions, but if you sit in a room and play both kinds of guitars, at some point it will become a no brainer.

[Dbone]

Originally Posted by gfirob

In a big picture sense he wasn’t just comparing Eastman and Taylor guitars (and that Taylor really sounded like it came from the shallow end of the pool in this case) but the comparison of all mass produced CNC dominant American guitars (including Martin and Gibson) to Chinese guitars. And in sound, fit and finish (at least as much as we can tell on a Youtube video) the genuinely hand built guitars from China were superior and of course you get way more for your money.

So with a partnership between a high end American company and a low-wage Chinese manufacturer we could be seeing a real ice-pick aimed at the heart of mass produced American guitars. I mean, these Eastman guitars seem to be very, very good (and I am a Martin owner).

We have seen in other products that the Chinese have upped their game in terms of quality control and marketing and at some point there is just not going to be any point in spending 3 times as much for a guitar just to have it made in the United States with a famous brand. Bragging rights are great, and sometimes a brand name looms large in our dream guitar visions, but if you sit in a room and play both kinds of guitars, at some point it will become a no brainer.

Respectfully, I’m not sure you did glean what he was getting at...He was pretty squarely aiming his commentary at v class specifically...It was a video that built on top of other commentary he gave in the past about v class...

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by JGinNJ

I tried that model at a show, great guitar, and for 5K, it should be! I saw the Mimi Fox piece after that, and she does play it well. But it also reminded me, that's not the sound I'm going for in my playing.
I was also flirting with the 814ce dlx, trying at different stores but not buying. I think they're overpriced, and 4K will buy a lot of great guitars.

The thing that stands out for me about those guitars is they are very comfortable ergonomically, and play balanced and evenly across the range and up the neck. That experience won't come through in a video or recording.

Still, you have to like the sound. I like those higher end Taylor's- until I compare them to a Martin. I know it's a Ford vs. Chevy thing, but when I played a D-18 GE, then picked up an 814ce, the Taylor was weak. Eastman is a high-end Hyundai- I've played a couple of their archtops, and they're better than an Indonesian Epiphone, but the sound is kind of bright and lacking depth.

I think that is a key point - is it the sound you are going for? As for whether or not it is overpriced, I think we each have our priorities and value a product is to us. Besides that, consider that you usually get a pretty good discount if you ask.

When I played that K14ce, it was the sound I am looking for and I didn't want to risk whether or not all the K14ce that I might eventually encounter would sound just like that, since there will always be variances from guitar to guitar.

If the Martin sound is what you are looking for, then a Taylor is not the one. I like Martin's sound just fine, but much prefer the playability of Taylor so when I found a Taylor whose sound rang true for me, that was it.

The various threads around here about V-class, pro and con, are interesting for a while until they start to repeat themselves. However, all that "talk talk" aside, it still comes down to trying a bunch of them and determining whether or not the sound is right for you as a player.

It seems to me that the average quality of guitars these days seems rather high, so it is primarily a matter of finding what works for you as an individual.

Tony

[Scolaguitar]

I do watch some of his videos and I usually like what he has to say but I agree, it takes him a while to get to the point and I want to move him along.

I agree with him saying how it's high praise the fact that Bourgeois partnering with Eastman to make more affordable guitars for him.
He's also right that with Eastman you really do get a lot more guitar for the money. Eastmans are no slouch when it comes to guitars. They are attempting to mimic time honored traditions in guitar building and they are succeeding for the most part. Doesn't mean they don't have their share of duds or issues. I got mine from a local dealer. Otherwise, I may have dismissed them.

Sometimes his demos have sounded good but this one, the setup didn't seem that good to me. The Taylor sounded awful and seemed out of tune but the Eastman, I couldn't really tell, it sounded slightly better but not much. It was really hard to get a good feel of what he was hearing.

With that being said though, we went to GC the other day. I tried out one of those 314CE. I'll just say I prefer the x-brace way more than the v-brace.(I used to own a used 314ce, perfectly fine guitar...)

I also tried another 317, still didn't grab me. Perhaps it's the elixirs. I don't like elixirs. I don't like new string zing so if a guitar has that zing for a lot longer it will color my perception and that's what Taylor uses.
That being said, I'm not going to buy a guitar I don't care for and hope different strings will help.

I have yet to pick up a v brace that made me want to keep playing it. (I still haven't been able to get my hands on a 717...) Again, I keep hearing the elixirs don't make them sound their best but again, if first impressions don't grab me, then that's the end of it for me.

I did pick up a D-28 that I really liked. Thankfully, nothing made me want to stop everything and rethink my current collection.

[Silly Moustache]

Folks, there is an aspect that I'd like to suggest you consider in this discussion.

Richard (like me) is a Brit, and sells mainly to British, and sometimes to other EU based clients.

To us, both American made and far eastern made guitars are all "foreign made".

So, to compare the Taylor to a similar design Eastman is perfectly reasonable to us - the main difference, of course, (and remember that he is selling both) is the price.

In the UK we don't all the different price points (MAP, street, etc.) - the price is the price in the UK (give or take a pack of strings or some such) and includes the national purchase tax rate (currently 20%).

American products are fine, great, lovely, wonderful - in varying degrees, and almost all of my instruments are US made, but we have to accept that Far-eastern made equivalents are improving, especially Eastmans.

Once, "made in Japan" implied meant poor quality - that is no longer true.
Despite some misleading "fake" products from China, there are also many perfectly reputable Chinese manufacturers (of just about everything) and Eastman are a long established musical instrument makers and their quality now, truly rivals that of higher US made products.

I don't believe that Richard was bashing Taylor, or the USA but trying to make a point that both instruments were not that dissimilar but that the price points; value for money, was too radical to ignore.

Many things, not least exchange rates make a big difference.

I hope you understand my, and perhaps Richard's point.

[Nick84]

I usually watch Richards videos with interest and one thing that constantly crops up is that he really does not like Taylor. I got into a brief debate with him over this video on Facebook.

He told me that Eastman use far better quality tone woods than Taylor. Obviously his opinion. I asked him how he had measured this or where he obtained this information and he didn’t respond.
I also pointed out that the difference is cost is due to the location and if you asked Eastman to produce the same guitars for the same price but in the US they wouldn’t be able to and probably would be more than the equivalent Taylor.

He used to be a Taylor dealer and something clearly went sour which has left him very bitter which does show in his videos at times. Anything he has to say about Taylor I tend to take with a pinch of salt. Especially a comparison video recorded on a mobile phone.

[fazool]

Originally Posted by Dbone

Yes there was, and it starts with the letter “v”

Lol

In all seriousness, it is going to be interesting to see how this all plays out long term. All I see are references to this Andy powers guy being a genius and all that. Is he? Is he really?

Somebody with zero experience with guitars could watch this video and many similar ones out there and see it easily. Case in point, my wife. It was blatantly obvious to her that the 900 pound Eastman (less than half the price of that Taylor in the vid) blew the doors off of it...

This is a bizarre time in Taylor’s history. I know this is controversial.

I hate it a bit because I still consider myself a Taylor fan despite the fact that I would not purchase any of their current offerings. As a company, and what they stand for, I am a fan of Taylor. Their design language? In my opinion, some of the absolute best out there. I actually find the current direction very frustrating as a consumer. I want to buy a Taylor but I just can’t look past what this v class nonsense is doing.

They’ve made it so that it will be harder to compare v class to non v class within their own line. They will never stop the comparisons with other brands and bracing setups...This is going to be a problem for them...

I'm a Taylor fan still. But I agree. And I am a CNC manufacturing automation guy so a big fan of precision CNC machined parts, even guitars.

But I am not a fan of this direction.


Makes me think of New Coke.

[Dbone]

Originally Posted by Nick84

I usually watch Richards videos with interest and one thing that constantly crops up is that he really does not like Taylor. I got into a brief debate with him over this video on Facebook.

He told me that Eastman use far better quality tone woods than Taylor. Obviously his opinion. I asked him how he had measured this or where he obtained this information and he didn’t respond.
I also pointed out that the difference is cost is due to the location and if you asked Eastman to produce the same guitars for the same price but in the US they wouldn’t be able to and probably would be more than the equivalent Taylor.

He used to be a Taylor dealer and something clearly went sour which has left him very bitter which does show in his videos at times. Anything he has to say about Taylor I tend to take with a pinch of salt. Especially a comparison video recorded on a mobile phone.

Yeah, I did gather he had a relationship with Taylor in the past that dissolved for some reason...certainly don't know the details...

I hear where you are coming from. He is only human and might carry some bitterness...Not totally sure...I don't really pick any up if there is some to be honest...He comes across as being reasonably impartial towards looking at things for what they are if I'm being completely honest...my opinion only...

[kcnbys]

Regarding this video, here is what is undeniable:

1. That particular 314ce didn't sound so great, and had some string
buzz.
2. Those particular Eastmans seemed to sound "nicer" than that Taylor.
3. Eastman makes wonderful guitars.
4. Taylor makes wonderful guitars.
5. Relative to their Taylor (or Martin, or Gibson) counterparts, Eastman is a
superb economic value.
6. Richard seems to have a bias against Taylor Guitars, particularly V-class Taylors.

Interesting vid. Thanks for the share.

[Dbone]

Originally Posted by kcnbys

Regarding this video, here is what is undeniable:

1. That particular 314ce didn't sound so great, and had some string
buzz.
2. Those particular Eastmans seemed to sound "nicer" than that Taylor.
3. Eastman makes wonderful guitars.
4. Taylor makes wonderful guitars.
5. Relative to their Taylor (or Martin, or Gibson) counterparts, Eastman is a
superb economic value.
6. Richard seems to have a bias against Taylor Guitars, particularly V-class Taylors.

Interesting vid. Thanks for the share.

Not a bad summary but I will say: There is a growing bias against Taylor because of v class...my opinion...

If anything, the comments in this thread have tempered a bit my willingness to generalize too much about how widespread the "thinness" in the Taylor line is because of v class...I'm going to try to keep more of an open mind...

Who knows, I may need to look around more. The Yamaha LL36 I'm supposed to get might not be coming...Not sure yet, but there might have been a mix up...Starting to feel like Yamaha Canada might have promised me a unit that was already spoken for...I'm hoping to know next week what the heck is going on...bah...Maybe I'll trial a few more Taylors just in case ;-0

[kcnbys]

Originally Posted by Dbone

Not a bad summary but I will say: There is a growing bias against Taylor because of v class...my opinion...

If anything, the comments in this thread have tempered a bit my willingness to generalize too much about how widespread the "thinness" in the Taylor line is because of v class...I'm going to try to keep more of an open mind...

Who knows, I may need to look around more. The Yamaha LL36 I'm supposed to get might not be coming...Not sure yet, but there might have been a mix up...Starting to feel like Yamaha Canada might have promised me a unit that was already spoken for...I'm hoping to know next week what the heck is going on...bah...Maybe I'll trial a few more Taylors just in case ;-0

Wouldn't be a bad idea - ha! My personal experience is that V-class Taylors don't necessarily do anything more for me than their predecessors. I've been a very satisfied Taylor player for over 20 years, and my 517 notwithstanding, for my style I generally prefer PRE-V-class Taylors. My 517 is truly awesome, as is my WAY before V-class 410.

[Conomor]

I believe that Richard is earnest and that his passion for the brands he sells is genuine. Taking geography out of the equation, his position appears to be that hand-made guitars built by skilled craftsmen and sold at a lower price point are a better value proposition than mass-produced, machine-built guitars offered at a higher price point. I see nothing contentious in this assertion.