NGD: Went to the dark side

[PiousDevil]

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

Have the mods repost this on the Archtop forum - you'll get a load of valuable feedback on both care-&-feeding and jazz materials/techniques over there...

Sweet guitar, BTW - use it well and often...

I didn't even realize there was an archtop forum. How would I get this reposted over there? I'll just make another post over there.

[PiousDevil]

Hi! I've been interested in adding some jazz styling to my repetoire, so on a whim just picked up a new all solid chinese made archtop, The Loar LH-600, to learn with the proper asthetic. Some questions:

1: what do I need to know for proper care of this beauty?

2: what strings? I've got some John Pearse Nuage (11) strings on the way, no idea if they are appropriate for this though.

3: resources for learning jazz standards? I've got a couple of Jody Fischer's books I'm going to work through for technique, but don't know where to go for material. I'm interested in hot club (manouche, whatever), western swing, stuff like that.

Alright, pictures.

[Looburst]

They are great sounding guitars, just a fact. Congrats

[tdq]

I have a Loar 700. I love it. The action was very high so I gave it a fairly radical sanding on the bridge, but after that, I really enjoy playing it and love the sound, for jazz, fingerpicking, flatpicking and "choppy" strummming. My only complaint is although it is spec'd at 1 3/4, its really more 1 11/16 which personally I find a little tight.

[Orfeas]

Why dark side?? This is a very good looking guitar. Congrats and happy playing!!!!

[Steve DeRosa]

I'll start'ya off and let the rest chime in as things go along:

1. In addition to the usual care you'd give any high-quality all-solid guitar, you want to make sure that the bridge base is properly fitted to the contour of the top; a non-issue with the glued bridges of flattop guitars, an improperly-fitted bridge is arguably the greatest tone-sucker in the archtop world. The simple test here is to take a piece of lined notebook paper (or thin copy paper) and slide a corner around the perimeter of the bridge base: if you can insert it more than about 1/32" at any point you need to have it fitted by a tech who knows what he/she is doing - this isn't one that falls under the heading of DIY for 99% of us (put down the X-Acto knife and sandpaper, keep your hands in sight, and step away from the guitar ), and many otherwise excellent flattop/electric-guitar techs don't know jack when it comes to these babies; have it done right the first time and you'll be rewarded with a lifetime of service...
2. The operational/vibrational principles and construction methods of the "American" archtop guitar (Gibson, Epiphone, D'Angelico, Stromberg, et al.) and "gypsy-jazz" guitars are quite different in practice; while the lightly-built Selmer-style instruments can achieve great volume with string gauges more typically associated with modern solid-body electrics, American instruments require a significantly heavier string to drive the top adequately. IMO you might be able to get away with a 12-53 set if you're going to be playing manouche exclusively; since you're going to be exploring other styles as well, I'd start with a 13-56 set in whatever material you choose (I've heard Martin Monels work exceptionally well, if you want to get authentic period-correct tone), and adjust the action to your required comfort level (something you can't do with most flattops, BTW)...
3. I'm going to assume you're reasonably fluent in reading traditional music notation before I continue; that said, there's a wealth of written materials out there. The first book I'd recommend is the Mel Bay Rhythm Guitar Chord System; in continuous publication since 1947, this one's the comper's bible - and since you've indicated Western swing as one of your interests it'll show you how to play those big, fat chords that cut through any arrangement. I'd also suggest Masters of the Plectrum Guitar (another Mel Bay publication), a collection of solo works by the likes of Django, Al Hendrickson, Harry Volpe, etc.; the good news is that many of these pieces are available on YouTube, either by the original artists or modern interpreters - some of whom use the Loar instruments, and all of which will give you an excellent overview of the technical and tonal possibilites of the archtop guitar (far less limited than many folks would lead you to believe)...

Hope this helps...

[PiousDevil]

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

I'll start'ya off and let the rest chime in as things go along:

1. In addition to the usual care you'd give any high-quality all-solid guitar, you want to make sure that the bridge base is properly fitted to the contour of the top; a non-issue with the glued bridges of flattop guitars, an improperly-fitted bridge is arguably the greatest tone-sucker in the archtop world. The simple test here is to take a piece of lined notebook paper (or thin copy paper) and slide a corner around the perimeter of the bridge base: if you can insert it more than about 1/32" at any point you need to have it fitted by a tech who knows what he/she is doing - this isn't one that falls under the heading of DIY for 99% of us (put down the X-Acto knife and sandpaper, keep your hands in sight, and step away from the guitar ), and many otherwise excellent flattop/electric-guitar techs don't know jack when it comes to these babies; have it done right the first time and you'll be rewarded with a lifetime of service...
2. The operational/vibrational principles and construction methods of the "American" archtop guitar (Gibson, Epiphone, D'Angelico, Stromberg, et al.) and "gypsy-jazz" guitars are quite different in practice; while the lightly-built Selmer-style instruments can achieve great volume with string gauges more typically associated with modern solid-body electrics, American instruments require a significantly heavier string to drive the top adequately. IMO you might be able to get away with a 12-53 set if you're going to be playing manouche exclusively; since you're going to be exploring other styles as well, I'd start with a 13-56 set in whatever material you choose (I've heard Martin Monels work exceptionally well, if you want to get authentic period-correct tone), and adjust the action to your required comfort level (something you can't do with most flattops, BTW)...
3. I'm going to assume you're reasonably fluent in reading traditional music notation before I continue; that said, there's a wealth of written materials out there. The first book I'd recommend is the Mel Bay Rhythm Guitar Chord System; in continuous publication since 1947, this one's the comper's bible - and since you've indicated Western swing as one of your interests it'll show you how to play those big, fat chords that cut through any arrangement. I'd also suggest Masters of the Plectrum Guitar (another Mel Bay publication), a collection of solo works by the likes of Django, Al Hendrickson, Harry Volpe, etc.; the good news is that many of these pieces are available on YouTube, either by the original artists or modern interpreters - some of whom use the Loar instruments, and all of which will give you an excellent overview of the technical and tonal possibilites of the archtop guitar (far less limited than many folks would lead you to believe)...

Hope this helps...

Excellent. I have a few sets of monels right here waiting for the strings to wear out on one of my dreadnoughts so I can give them a try, looks like they just became my jazz strings!

[Steve DeRosa]

Here's a few you might enjoy:











For "Gypsy Etude #3" the guitar is strung with light-gauge strings (probably ball-end manouche-style); compare the tone with "Nuages" and "Mala Femmena" - you'll see what I mean about the need for heavier gauges...

[PiousDevil]

So there is a fair amount of space under one end of the bridge, not under the strings, just on the end. How much of a concern is this?

[Steve DeRosa]

You always want the maximum amount of surface area contacting the top, no matter how good it sounds right now - get it properly fitted and you may be surprised how much tone you've been losing...

[mickthemiller]

I had one a couple of years ago. Very nice guitar with a real archtop tone. Great for jazz, there are a couple of YouTube examples/reviews. Mine spent too much time in the case (very nice lightweight) so I sold it on. Often wish I'd held on to it. I recently tried one of the new Epiphone Century archtops thinking I might buy one but they are not a patch on the tone from this Loar. One thing I noticed is, the finish is very brittle. It doesn't take kindly to the odd knock and it's very easy to end up with small dings.

[MC5C]

Speaking as one who builds and plays archtops, some guitars respond differently than other guitars. Try different strings, I find that lower tension strings make my archtops respond better and that heavy strings choke out the sound. A player's touch makes a big difference, people who play with a very heavy touch (as seems more common these days) need heavy strings and higher action to keep from over-driving the strings. I'm currently using a bluegrass set .012 - .056 and tuning down a step to D. The bass came really alive.

[Slim]

Awesome looking guitar, Darth Vader! Looking forward to a review.

[Steve DeRosa]

Since you're building your own archtops - a talent for which I have the utmost respect - you have the capacity to carve and fine-tune the plates/body cavity to your own desired response profile; unfortunately, that's not possible (except at great - and unnecessary - expense) with an off-the-shelf instrument. Given the fact that the OP is coming over from flattops (and that I've played a few of these same instruments since their release) your points about heavy touch and the subsequent need for heavier strings/higher action (among my own initial concerns, BTW) are well-taken; the LH-600 is as close as you're going to get (other than the upscale LH-700) to a Mother Maybelle/Eddie Lang L-5 in a new instrument, and IME the OP is going to need to set up his guitar in a more period-correct manner in order to bring out its best - since there's a current thread about "lame" tone, IMO that's a situation he doesn't need to deal with as a newcomer to the genre...

[Silly Moustache]

Steve has given you lots of good advice. I've owned a couple of Loar Archtops, so I'd second the suggestion to get it set up as well as possible - bridge seating, placement for intonation, and tailpiece clearance from the body as Loar neck angles tend to be very shallow.

As far as strings are concerned - I started off with "special" strings - nickels, monels etc., but now I use the same as on my dreads - D'addario - EJ17s (13-56). They sound fine, although monels and nickels might last longer before corroding , going off.
Good luck!