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Old 02-01-2023, 10:32 AM
dilver dilver is offline
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Default Convince me: Anthem or K&K Pure Mini

Some people will say removing an UST absolutely makes a difference (nothing between bridge, saddle, tighter fit, get all that crap outta there), while others will say it doesn’t make a discernible difference (the UST is hard material and thin enough). I saw the poll.

After some experimentation, I’ve come to the conclusion that removing the UST from my J-45 Standard w/LR Baggs Element does make small difference in tone. About the same or perhaps even less difference than switching to bone bridge pins (I can hear that difference, too). But to me, it’s slight and no one listening to me play would possibly hear the difference.

Since 85% of the time, I’m not plugging in, for now, I’ve just pulled the UST from under the saddle and I’m just letting it hang there inside the guitar. There’s a clip positioned close enough to keep it from knocking around inside. I’ve fitted the bridge with a slightly taller and tighter fitting saddle.

I’m still on the fence of removing the LR Baggs Element altogether and replacing with a K&K Pure mini, or replacing with an LR Baggs Anthem SL, so I can reduce the piezo quack.

From all that I’ve read here and elsewhere, the consensus seems to be: if you play with other musicians and need volume, go Anthem. If you play in quieter settings, go K&K, but you’ll need an external preamp for the pickup to sound its best, and potentially eq to prevent feedback (which ups the cost higher than the Anthem).

Also, removing a superglued K&K seems to be an ordeal and the pickup is trashed and can’t be used again, whereas an Anthem can be removed fairly easily (other than the battery bag). But if it sounds good, there’s no reason for me to pull it.

Would love to hear more from those that have pulled the Element and gone Anthem SL or K&K, particularly in a J-45…. I’m more of a strummer.
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Old 02-01-2023, 11:37 AM
aschroeder aschroeder is offline
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It all depends on your priorities. I hate having a UST under my saddle and hate even more having a battery, soundhole controls and wires all over inside my guitar. I also don't play in loud band settings and only do solo acoustic gigs. So for me using a passive soundboard transducer was the way to go. No battery and nothing below my saddle to affect the unplugged tone. You can use an external preamp if needed to boost or EQ the sound.

There are plenty of advocates for the K&K on this forum, but I prefer the passive Schatten HFN for a couple reasons:
  1. The HFN is very easy to install with double stick tape or putty and can easily be removed later. The K&K uses super glue.
  2. I don't care for the boomy low end you get out of the K&K. You can EQ it to sound good, but I feel it always lacks clarity on the high end. The HFN also needs to be EQ'd, but it is sort of the opposite of the K&K since it has too much on the high end. I use a typical midrange scoop on the EQ but cut a good amount on the highest 6.4k frequency. It sounds amazing at that point, but I also use an impulse response pedal to enhance the tone even more.

A fellow AGF member did a good review of the HFN: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wwzg2GFZHm4 or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bz_GG1v59k

Here is his review on the Baggs Anthem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=624wUnur8xE

The Baggs Anthem is a great pickup. It is probably the best pickup available for people playing in a louder band setting. It's also one of the bulkiest systems with two pickups, large soundhole controls, battery, and a bunch of wires.

From my point of view if you care a lot about the unplugged tone, go with a soundboard transducer. If you want more versatility in a live setting, go with the Anthem.
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Last edited by aschroeder; 02-01-2023 at 11:52 AM.
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  #3  
Old 02-01-2023, 11:47 AM
Ricketts Ricketts is offline
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Default Alternative?

What about the LR Baggs Lyric? No under saddle element, just an interior mic. Pros/Cons?
Thanks
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Old 02-01-2023, 12:16 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricketts View Post
What about the LR Baggs Lyric? No under saddle element, just an interior mic. Pros/Cons?
Thanks
Con.. not enough bass. I love the Lyric, but if you are used to that enhanced pickup low end, the Lyric will disappoint.

OP, both are nice. I hear issues with feedback when discussing the K&K but my buddy just got a guitar with one installed and we played a fairly loud venue/stage. He didn't have any issues. Once it's eq'd, the K&K can be good with reducing feedback. Plus, you can always use a soundhole cover. I was kind of against those but have come around to not minding them.

I personally have always wanted to like the Anthem, but have just never loved it. I have tried the SL and full Anthem and they just always sound too honky in the midrange and a bit too thin.
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Old 02-01-2023, 12:18 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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Originally Posted by aschroeder View Post
It all depends on your priorities. I hate having a UST under my saddle and hate even more having a battery, soundhole controls and wires all over inside my guitar. I also don't play in loud band settings and only do solo acoustic gigs. So for me using a passive soundboard transducer was the way to go. No battery and nothing below my saddle to affect the unplugged tone. You can use an external preamp if needed to boost or EQ the sound.

There are plenty of advocates for the K&K on this forum, but I prefer the passive Schatten HFN for a couple reasons:
  1. The HFN is very easy to install with double stick tape or putty and can easily be removed later. The K&K uses super glue.
  2. I don't care for the boomy low end you get out of the K&K. You can EQ it to sound good, but I feel it always lacks clarity on the high end. The HFN also needs to be EQ'd, but it is sort of the opposite of the K&K since it has too much on the high end. I use a typical midrange scoop on the EQ but cut a good amount on the highest 6.4k frequency. It sounds amazing at that point, but I also use an impulse response pedal to enhance the tone even more.

A fellow AGF member did a good review of the HFN: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wwzg2GFZHm4 or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bz_GG1v59k

Here is his review on the Baggs Anthem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=624wUnur8xE

The Baggs Anthem is a great pickup. It is probably the best pickup available for people playing in a louder band setting. It's also one of the bulkiest systems with two pickups, large soundhole controls, battery, and a bunch of wires.

From my point of view if you care a lot about the unplugged tone, go with a soundboard transducer. If you want more versatility in a live setting, go with the Anthem.
The HFN is an awesome design and sounds very good, but they need to find a way to get a balanced tone. The low E always sounded distant fto me. Lots of discussion about people having the same issues. I have heard it can be due to an uneven bridgeplate, but this doesn't really make sense as one method of installation is putty. I would think that putty would correct that problem.
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Old 02-01-2023, 12:42 PM
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keith.rogers keith.rogers is offline
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Probably not a lot of help - just some thoughts...

I'm more of a flatpicker and have a JJB in my one OM and chose the Anthem for the other. The JJB is very much like a K&K, and if you like that sound, well, definitely consider it, but I hear a lot more "quack" or piezo-ish sound from K&Ks (was just playing though one in a friend's D-35 last week) or JJB, which is why I just installed the Anthem in my newer (pickup-less) OM. It's not a UST, but it's there, and I think flatpicking brings out more of it.

K&K (and JJB) pickups have plenty of output and don't require a preamp, but having something with some tone controls will definitely help. (I've used my GigPro with my JJB and it's a nice improvement, as well as giving me a volume control I can reach if I want.)

On the other hand, a friend I play with occasionally at open mics prefers my JJB equipped guitar over his (nice Taylor) with a UST (Matrix Inifinity VT - installed when his ES1 crapped out).

I can't speak to the SL version specifically but the Anthem has a way to adjust the mic output vs. the UST and that seems to give me a good range of control over the balance between them. Lacking that adjustment I suspect the SL will depend on the guitar and installation whether you find it an improvement of a straight UST. (K&K, well any SBT, output is installation dependent, too, FWIW.)
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Old 02-01-2023, 12:45 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keith.rogers View Post
Probably not a lot of help - just some thoughts...

I'm more of a flatpicker and have a JJB in my one OM and chose the Anthem for the other. The JJB is very much like a K&K, and if you like that sound, well, definitely consider it, but I hear a lot more "quack" or piezo-ish sound from K&Ks (was just playing though one in a friend's D-35 last week) or JJB, which is why I just installed the Anthem in my newer (pickup-less) OM. It's not a UST, but it's there, and I think flatpicking brings out more of it.

K&K (and JJB) pickups have plenty of output and don't require a preamp, but having something with some tone controls will definitely help. (I've used my GigPro with my JJB and it's a nice improvement, as well as giving me a volume control I can reach if I want.)

On the other hand, a friend I play with occasionally at open mics prefers my JJB equipped guitar over his (nice Taylor) with a UST (Matrix Inifinity VT - installed when his ES1 crapped out).

I can't speak to the SL version specifically but the Anthem has a way to adjust the mic output vs. the UST and that seems to give me a good range of control over the balance between them. Lacking that adjustment I suspect the SL will depend on the guitar and installation whether you find it an improvement of a straight UST. (K&K, well any SBT, output is installation dependent, too, FWIW.)
So you hear more piezo tone with the K&K/JJB than with the Anthem? Interesting! I agree that with flatpicking, piezo tone can come out but I tend to find it shows itself more with the Anthem, even with the blend all the way to the tru-mic. I think it's that Element tone, which is quite distinct.
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Old 02-01-2023, 01:00 PM
aschroeder aschroeder is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petty1818 View Post
The HFN is an awesome design and sounds very good, but they need to find a way to get a balanced tone. The low E always sounded distant fto me. Lots of discussion about people having the same issues. I have heard it can be due to an uneven bridgeplate, but this doesn't really make sense as one method of installation is putty. I would think that putty would correct that problem.
I have the HFN installed on 2 guitars (Lowden F50 and Eastman E40 OM) and have no issues with the low end. My only problem is the highest frequency picks up string noise, so I cut down the high frequency to resolve that. I used the tape for installation on both guitars.

I do agree that it needs some EQ to get a balanced sound. But I would say that goes for all pickup systems.
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Last edited by aschroeder; 02-01-2023 at 01:34 PM.
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Old 02-01-2023, 01:37 PM
aschroeder aschroeder is offline
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Originally Posted by Ricketts View Post
What about the LR Baggs Lyric? No under saddle element, just an interior mic. Pros/Cons?
Thanks
I tried out the Baggs Lyric and ended up returning it. I liked the sound, but it picked up things you don't want to hear. I also had issues with distortion due to a vibration in my guitar. Plus I've know plenty of people have feedback issues with it.

I did a post after installing the Lyric here: https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/....php?p=7152258
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Old 02-01-2023, 01:49 PM
jseth jseth is offline
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Consider a set of Dazzos... I have had both the Anthem SL and the K&K in separate guitars. Never did get a decent tone from the K&K, not with the PURE XLR preamp and not just into my AER Compact or my Bose T1 mixer>Bose L1 Model II. Like the Anthem when it was plugged in; sounded fine; I kept the Anthem in my 2 stage guitars for nearly 10 years, so I must have thought that they sounded good!

Never had much feedback trouble with either pickup, unless I was being an idiot and ignoring the basic rules of amplifying acoustic guitars... like not having enough distance between the guitar and the sound source, or having the guitar's soundhole pointed at the sound source, or just plain trying to have the sound source too loud for the space...

I now have Dazzo pickups in my 6 and 12 string guitars. When I had those Anthem SL pickups taken out of my guitars, I was truly shocked by how much better the guitars sounded, and how much more volume they had, unplugged. The Dazzo doesn't change the volume or tone of the guitar while unplugged, and it sounds head and shoulders above the K&K or the Anthem. I get no piezo "quack" from the Dazzo, and I really like that there's no battery inside my guitar, nor a pre-amp.

For my purposes, I use my Bose T1 mixer as a "mute switch", and to control volume on the guitars, so I didn't worry about not having any volume control inside the guitar. The SunnAudio preamps were designed with the Dazzo in mind, and they sound superlative! Expensive, though.

The Dazzo is actually fairly easy to remove, either for re-positioning or removal - and they can be taken out and re-used, unlike the K&K. One thing to note is that when I had to remove a K&K, the superglue on the bridgeplate was nigh on to impossible to get off, whereas the epoxy used for the Dazzo actually comes off cleanly - a little scary to have to use brake fluid cleaner, but it was fairly easy and not damaging at all...

There are various choices with the Dazzo; I play a Goodall Concert Jumbo, and have a set of 60's in that.... I believe the Dazzo in my 12 string (same basic size/shape) is a pair of 70's. Teddy Randazzo makes the Dazzos, and is available to assist in choosing the correct number for your guitar and your needs.

I haven't gigged with the Dazzos, thanks to the pandemic, but I was really pleased when they went in the guitars - I had my Bose rig set up to "dial in" the position of the pickups when they went in the guitars, and they sound glorious!
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Old 02-01-2023, 02:27 PM
AeroUSA AeroUSA is offline
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Originally Posted by dilver View Post
Some people will say removing an UST absolutely makes a difference (nothing between bridge, saddle, tighter fit, get all that crap outta there), while others will say it doesn’t make a discernible difference (the UST is hard material and thin enough). I saw the poll.

After some experimentation, I’ve come to the conclusion that removing the UST from my J-45 Standard w/LR Baggs Element does make small difference in tone. About the same or perhaps even less difference than switching to bone bridge pins (I can hear that difference, too). But to me, it’s slight and no one listening to me play would possibly hear the difference.

Since 85% of the time, I’m not plugging in, for now, I’ve just pulled the UST from under the saddle and I’m just letting it hang there inside the guitar. There’s a clip positioned close enough to keep it from knocking around inside. I’ve fitted the bridge with a slightly taller and tighter fitting saddle.

I’m still on the fence of removing the LR Baggs Element altogether and replacing with a K&K Pure mini, or replacing with an LR Baggs Anthem SL, so I can reduce the piezo quack.

From all that I’ve read here and elsewhere, the consensus seems to be: if you play with other musicians and need volume, go Anthem. If you play in quieter settings, go K&K, but you’ll need an external preamp for the pickup to sound its best, and potentially eq to prevent feedback (which ups the cost higher than the Anthem).

Also, removing a superglued K&K seems to be an ordeal and the pickup is trashed and can’t be used again, whereas an Anthem can be removed fairly easily (other than the battery bag). But if it sounds good, there’s no reason for me to pull it.

Would love to hear more from those that have pulled the Element and gone Anthem SL or K&K, particularly in a J-45…. I’m more of a strummer.
I agree with everything you said and I think you should get the Anthem SL.
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Old 02-01-2023, 02:43 PM
jay42 jay42 is offline
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I have an Anthem SL and it comes with a small plastic screwdriver to adjust the pickup balance. I think all you get for an extra $100, is ability to flip the system polarity easily. A short jumper cable can be built/ bought to do the same if it comes up.
That said, the K&K/Dazzo passive style implies an outboard preamp before DI. In the guitar or on the floor....you have to ponder the trade offs.

As of 2019, the goto approach for some top Nashville guys was K&K in the guitar and the Tonedexter...which isn't cheap, but they had or had easy access to any microphones they wanted to capture.

Glue = commitment!
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Old 02-01-2023, 03:48 PM
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keith.rogers keith.rogers is offline
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Originally Posted by jay42 View Post
I have an Anthem SL and it comes with a small plastic screwdriver to adjust the pickup balance. I think all you get for an extra $100, is ability to flip the system polarity easily. A short jumper cable can be built/ bought to do the same if it comes up.
...
Besides the polarity button, the "full" anthem has a balance control, which performs to some degree like a tone control, since the UST and Tru-Mic parts have a kind of crossover (around 250Hz IIRC), i.e., shifting the balance to the mic side adds treble while going toward the UST reduces it. The mic output control [on both] is something that you do need to "dial in" and while it's also a kind of "balance" between the UST and Tru-Mic component, it's static and, per design, not something you can change while performing. The Anthem also has a battery test button with a set of LEDs. I have no doubt a fair chunk of the $100 bump is profit margin, but there is a bit more functionality, and that's the business model.

The Anthem does require a 4" soundhole, which I've mentioned before, so that needs to be checked. (My OM's soundhole is probably 3.9" but it fit fine there.) I have not installed an SL, but the Anthem's larger preamp/control box may also have some fit/clearance issues inside if the bracing is not pretty typical "Martin X" stuff.
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Old 02-01-2023, 06:20 PM
savannahmay savannahmay is offline
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more into KK pure mini sounds. it's the most fartless piezo out there lol although that can be controlled with good preamp and amp settings tweaking.



my bf uses his with alix pre amp into his amp; and when he borrows a pointdexter no wait tonedexter it actually sounds like a legit acoustic unplugged


guitarist in my band also likes KK pure out into preamp and into his amp or he uses a tonedexter or into his kemper with modeled IR samples of his fav acoustics . . .

as for installing a KK pure, if its done right (its easy there are some youtube tuts out there) with positioning, don't need to take it out as unless its dead
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Old 02-02-2023, 02:36 AM
Peter Z Peter Z is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilver View Post
Would love to hear more from those that have pulled the Element and gone Anthem SL or K&K, particularly in a J-45…. I’m more of a strummer.
My J-45 (Southern Jumbo) still has the Element, which is not a bad UST, but I replaced the Element with an Anthem SL in my Hummingbird. Many will disagree, but I think the J-45 and the Hummingbird (both from the same year) sound very similar. Tone woods and scale are the same.

The Anthem SL is not as good to my ears as the full Anthem but both are much better than the Element. It was a huge improvement.

I think all pickups with an Element need to settle a while till the soft part of the Element is really squeezed. So, don’t judge it on the first days. Also you might leave the saddle a tiny bit higher and sand it down after 2 or 3 days.

Also, take some time to adjust the screw. Do it while playing at gig level or you might be disappointed at your first gig.

All in all the Anthems are by far the best pickups, I’ve ever used.

The most flexible is the Stagepro Anthem but it needs an ugly barndoor.
Next best is the full Anthem.
Close behind the SL.
I have two guitars with Lyrics but they only sound nice at very low stage volume.
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