Tom Sands OM

[steveh]

Originally Posted by gitarro

I have owned or played the guitars of a couple of somogyi's ex apprentices. None of those guitars could touch the tonal bloom and responsiveness of a somogyi mod dreadnought that is off the charts and which is the best guitar i have ever played.

I've played the sum total of 3 Somogyis; a MD, OM and Jumbo.

One was truly astounding, one of the most memorable guitars I've played (and largely built in the shop by Jason Kostal). One was excellent but no better to my ears than an apprentice guitar I was ABing it with. The other was mediocre in the company it was being compared to.

Guitars are made of organic materials and even the same model and woods by the same builder can vary ++. What has surprised me so far about Tom's guitars is that they have all sounded really great. I'm surprised by that consistency but then he's been building guitars day-in-day-out (mostly Somogyis) for the last couple of years. Perhaps Ian's guitar will be awful and buck that trend?

As for the hyperbole, at 35K USD for a new Somogyi (and much more over here in the UK due to import taxes/VAT etc), I'd rightfully expect a chorus of angels etc. to appear if I bought one. Tom's guitars are one-sixth of a Somogyi landed in the UK and I think they get in that sonic ballpark. Other apprentices do as well but I think that's unsurprising since they have all been building Somogyis during their time in the shop. Jason Kostal has written extremely eloquently on this forum about what being a Somogyi apprentice entails.

Of course it's not fair to expect Tom's guitars to sound like a 35K Somogyi, noting that Tom's instruments would equal or beat two of the three Somogyis I've played (as ever, IMHO). Before dropping the coin, we have to try our best to try and play these fantastic instruments from all of these great builders, hear for ourselves, and make our value judgement. That's the fun bit; there's something out there for everyone who is interested in this style of guitar.

Cheers,
Steve

[Adamski]

I have been fortunate enough to own a number of great guitars over the years, and have played many many more. In fact, I think I have played guitars by every single builder of note there has been.

Over the last couple of years I have been in the fortunate position to be able to buy any guitar I have wanted...and believe me, I have looked. The thing that prevented me from buying a Greenfield, a Somogyi or a Traugott wasn't because they were too expensive or that they weren't good enough, it was that I didn't feel they represented good enough "value."

I am happy to pay whatever the cost of an amazing instrument may be...but I am not prepared to pay for inlays, for woods, or for the logo on the headstock. I am interested in how it feels, how it's made, and most of all, how it sounds.

When I commissioned my Sands OM, I was taking very little risk because Ervin had done the selection of talent for me! However it was still quite a big expense. But this first guitar was so amazing that I bought a second on the spot (which Tom had build "on spec" hoping I would buy it) and ordered a third within a week.

His guitars are outstanding...why else would I give him my money. Everyone who has played one has either ordered or is considering ordering one. Because they are exceptionally good instruments.

I am not naive enough to believe that a Somogyi, a Greenfield or a Traugott is made entirely (or even mostly) by them when they have a phenomenally skilled apprentice at there disposal...rather like a CNC machine that also makes coffee on demand! These apprentices are worked hard as their "payment' for their education and part of that is building instruments in the name of the maker.

So when you buy a guitar from a great maker you are probably buying an instrument which is "overseen" by the master...rather than made by, so the idea that a Kostal/Sands/Kraut is "not as good" as Ervin is ludicrous. It may be different. It may be less to your taste. But inferior...no, not at all.

So, Tim Sands' guitars...

Are they better than a Somogyi? No. Are they "worse" than a Somogyi? No. Are they different? Perhaps...slightly. But in a blind test...whilst you may have a preference...I bet you couldn't name who made which.

So, given that almost everyone who has played one of my Sands guitars is blown away...as much as they are by a Somogyi...should one of Ervin's guitars command a 400% price hike over a Sands guitar?

I will let you guys be the judge of that.

[SiliconValleySJ]

Originally Posted by Adamski

So when you buy a guitar from a great maker you are probably buying an instrument which is "overseen" by the master...rather than made by, so the idea that a Kostal/Sands/Kraut is "not as good" as Ervin is ludicrous. It may be different. It may be less to your taste. But inferior...no, not at all.

I would disagree with this statement given that Ervin actually does a fair amount of the build and voicing himself. He's just that kind of builder. I've seen him on the table saw doing small things that he could've (should've?) farmed out to apprentices, but he doesn't.

He also does things which are constantly pushing the boundaries, so his tone has changed somewhat over time. His apprentices are learning different things from him too.

Originally Posted by Adamski

Are they better than a Somogyi? No. Are they "worse" than a Somogyi? No. Are they different? Perhaps...slightly. But in a blind test...whilst you may have a preference...I bet you couldn't name who made which.

They are pretty different. Yes, I think I actually can tell the difference in a blind test. I've heard enough of a variety of apprentices (certainly not all of them) that I can tell where each of those apprentices has decided to veer off Ervin's path in their build.

For example, I recall the tonal qualities of one of your builds. I found that one to be much more satisfying than the smaller bodied Sands I played in the same visit.

Anyways, not to start a flame war here. I just wanted to note earlier that I felt the Sands tone was distinct enough from some of the other apprentices that it's up to the ear of the beholder.

[Adamski]

I have played 2 Somogyis, a couple of Krauts, probably a dozen Kostals, a Matsuda and a number of Sands (obviously)...to be honest the 2 Somogyis that I have heard were way different in sound from each other. My three Sands are amazingly different from each other the MMD being more like an MD and the OM sounding almost like a Sobell...with loads of attack and a very treble-biased sound. The Kostals I have played...again, very different to each other.

It's worth saying that all of these instruments are brilliant, and most people would kill to own one.

On Sunday I was with Steve...4 Sands and 2 Kostals (amongst others) in the house and you would not have been able to "name the maker" blind. You would have had preferences...perhaps strong ones, but given that there was wedge, madrose, walnut, spell, koa paired with a selection of different fronts there were so many variables...too many to come to a "signature sound" decision about Sands of Kostal...

To a certain extent, Ervin's guitars have become the epitome of themselves. People assume, wrongly, that because it's been made by Ervin "that is how a guitar should sound" and that isn't necessarily true. In a slight contradictions to my earlier comment...I played a Somogyi Mod D and...I could have bought it, but I didn't. In fact I wouldn't have bought it as I found it bass heavy, boomy and uncontrolled at the bottom end. That "bloom" was just uncontrolled boom!

[Wolfram]

Ian, that looks absolutely stunning... and I bet it sounds every bit as good. I can't wait to meet it in person in a few weeks!

I'm happy to say that I'm also on Tom Sands's build list, and have been since I played Adam's first two Sands guitars last July. They were both flawlessly built, and I can honestly say that for my tastes they were two of the nicest sounding guitars I've played; that Tom had made fewer than five guitars at that point made that all the more remarkable.

I won't get into the master vs apprentice debate. I've played the same three Somogyis that Steve and Adam have discussed, as well as most of the same Kostals, Krauts and Matsudas (we all get together a couple of times a year) and I think the only thing I can say with certainty is that all make beautiful, superbly-crafted and great-sounding guitars. I've had a Modified Dreadnought-shaped hole in my small stable for a few years now, but neither the Somogyi MD nor any of those by his apprentices that I've played have felt completely right to me. I got that feeling from Adam's two Sands guitars (though neither is an MD) so have taken the plunge! Hopefully I'll be able to start a build thread soon.

Cheers,
David

[gitarro]

Any given guitar made by any competent luthier has the chance of being the best guitar - so is it possible for a random guitar to be more liked by most people who play it than a somogyi or a walker or a tj thompson or a traugott? Definitely.

Even master luthiers of 30 plus years do not hit the heights every time - i have played guitars made by such luthiers that have disappointed me.

Surely it will be acknowledged that both the maater luthier ans the newbie luthier will also at times produce a substandard work. It os the risk of working with wood to wean tone from.it.

But when both the master and his apprentices hit the mark, how close to the absolute black pinpoint of the bullseye they get will show the mastery that they have. There is a reason why the ex apprentices studied with the master luthier for two years - because he is the master and they are not. It is also a truism that two years of training- no matter how intense - cannot teplace a lifetime of learned experience and honing. So after those two years of training, the ex apprentices do not become masters overnighr. They have gotten an excellent start and the rest requires maturing and organic growth like fone wine.

Everything i have read has indicated that the apprentices of somogyi do not do the voicing of his guitars - that is reserved solely for somogyi himself. I believe i have read he also does the necks. So while it is tehnically accurate to say that his apprentices have built most of the guitar, it is in another sense not accurate either because all the acoustically significant building is done by somogyi himself.

As fo the results of the voicing by somogyi, i used to be skeptical until i played one of his guitars that did hit the mark - and it is so responsive as to make almost all other guitars i have played seem like they are missing an entire layer of responsiveness. In fact i ended up buying it and i sold off much of my small collection in order to buy it because that guitar was worth it.


Also one does not have to commision a new somogyi to own one and to pay the new price for one - there are used examples that actually don't cost much more than the cost of the guitars of some of his ex apprentices. Furthermore it is said by some in the know that it is some of the older somogyis that are actually more responsive than bis newest ones as he may have changed the way he voices over time.

The conclusion of my rambling is that for the reader of all of the stuff that gets posted here on agf who is excited to want to use his or her hard earned money to get a guitar that sounds like somogyi's guitars - caveat emptor. Try before you buy and take everything with a pinch of salt, including what i have written here! LOL

[gitarro]

The somogyi mod d that i referred to is as well balanced as any OM. The bass is not boomy in the least but is luscious and authoritative. The trebles are beautiful. Every note has tonal bloom of the real sort. Maybe you played a very recent one that also didnt quite hit the mark. I have been told that his older ones around the millenium mark may be his best work if one likes tonal bloom and responsiveness.

Originally Posted by Adamski

I have played 2 Somogyis, a couple of Krauts, probably a dozen Kostals, a Matsuda and a number of Sands (obviously)...to be honest the 2 Somogyis that I have heard were way different in sound from each other. My three Sands are amazingly different from each other the MMD being more like an MD and the OM sounding almost like a Sobell...with loads of attack and a very treble-biased sound. The Kostals I have played...again, very different to each other.

It's worth saying that all of these instruments are brilliant, and most people would kill to own one.

On Sunday I was with Steve...4 Sands and 2 Kostals (amongst others) in the house and you would not have been able to "name the maker" blind. You would have had preferences...perhaps strong ones, but given that there was wedge, madrose, walnut, spell, koa paired with a selection of different fronts there were so many variables...too many to come to a "signature sound" decision about Sands of Kostal...

To a certain extent, Ervin's guitars have become the epitome of themselves. People assume, wrongly, that because it's been made by Ervin "that is how a guitar should sound" and that isn't necessarily true. In a slight contradictions to my earlier comment...I played a Somogyi Mod D and...I could have bought it, but I didn't. In fact I wouldn't have bought it as I found it bass heavy, boomy and uncontrolled at the bottom end. That "bloom" was just uncontrolled boom!

[gitarro]

Lastly nothing i have posted should be construed in any way as a suggestion against the tone of tom sands' guitars. Based on the sound clips, i have to say that i find the tone i hear from those clips to be slightly more oreferable to me than those of somogyi's more recent ex apprentices.

[Adamski]

Originally Posted by gitarro

Any given guitar made by any competent luthier has the chance of being the best guitar - so is it possible for a random guitar to be more liked by most people who play it than a somogyi or a walker or a tj thompson or a traugott? Definitely.

Any guitar made by a competent luthier has the chance of being very good...it is unlikely that it will be the best though.

Originally Posted by gitarro

Surely it will be acknowledged that both the maater luthier ans the newbie luthier will also at times produce a substandard work. It os the risk of working with wood to wean tone from.it.

No, not substandard, because the master luthier will redo his/her work until it meets their base standard...failure would mean an erosion of their reputation.

Originally Posted by gitarro

There is a reason why the ex apprentices studied with the master luthier for two years - because he is the master and they are not. It is also a truism that two years of training- no matter how intense - cannot teplace a lifetime of learned experience and honing.

That is clearly rubbish, otherwise no builder would ever surpass his master because the master would always have more experience. If that were true surely you would buy from Ervin's teacher? Or his teacher's teacher? Never the student.

Jeff Traugott learned guitar making at Santa Cruz Guitars...but his instruments are significantly better than anything that has ever left the SCGC workshop...but that's okay, that's how things should be.

This is known as standing on the shoulders of giants. The greatest honour that Ervin can have is knowing that his students do the job as well as he does...and many of them do.

Originally Posted by gitarro

Furthermore it is said by some in the know that it is some of the older somogyis that are actually more responsive than bis newest ones as he may have changed the way he voices over time.

If that is true...surely Ervin's capability as a builder has peaked and he is now making less good guitars than he once did.

I think that you have become "misty eyed" at the performance of Somogyi guitars. They are very good indeed. They are amongst the best guitars there are. They sometimes are exceptional. But they are not "always better than everything else" as you would suggest. Jason, Ray, Tom...and I'm sure other of his ex-apprentices make instruments every bit as good...and often better. What they don't have is the "Somogyi label" inside.

You should REALLY listen to the guitars you play because from a sound perspective they sometimes do not live up to the expectation and this is a very difficult thing for people to accept.

It's kind of like the fact that I want to marry Julia Roberts...there may be better women to look at, kinder woman, women who are better lovers and sexier...but I simply refuse to believe it!

[gitarro]

Originally Posted by Adamski

Any guitar made by a competent luthier has the chance of being very good...it is unlikely that it will be the best though.



No, not substandard, because the master luthier will redo his/her work until it meets their base standard...failure would mean an erosion of their reputation.



That is clearly rubbish, otherwise no builder would ever surpass his master because the master would always have more experience. If that were true surely you would buy from Ervin's teacher? Or his teacher's teacher? Never the student.

Jeff Traugott learned guitar making at Santa Cruz Guitars...but his instruments are significantly better than anything that has ever left the SCGC workshop...but that's okay, that's how things should be.

This is known as standing on the shoulders of giants. The greatest honour that Ervin can have is knowing that his students do the job as well as he does...and many of them do.



If that is true...surely Ervin's capability as a builder has peaked and he is now making less good guitars than he once did.

I think that you have become "misty eyed" at the performance of Somogyi guitars. They are very good indeed. They are amongst the best guitars there are. They sometimes are exceptional. But they are not "always better than everything else" as you would suggest. Jason, Ray, Tom...and I'm sure other of his ex-apprentices make instruments every bit as good...and often better. What they don't have is the "Somogyi label" inside.

You should REALLY listen to the guitars you play because from a sound perspective they sometimes do not live up to the expectation and this is a very difficult thing for people to accept.

It's kind of like the fact that I want to marry Julia Roberts...there may be better women to look at, kinder woman, women who are better lovers and sexier...but I simply refuse to believe it!

Every luthier makes guitars that are not as good now and then. We have all experienced it. You are saying the theory that the maker will remake it till he gets it right or smashes it as firewood. But we know that not so good ones do pass through the qc in reality of all luthiers all the time.

Secondly you are focusing on a straw man argument. I never said that somogyi will not be surpassed by his apprentices. Im sure he would want hia students to do better, and some of them may well do so in the fullness of time - like how jimmy d'aquisto eventually surpassed his mentor d'angelico as the most legendary archtop maker ever. What i cautioned against in the readers' mind is expecting recently graduated apprentices to do so NOW even though they have just started their own independent journey. They r immensely talented but everything needs time to mature, even genius...

Thirdly i didnt say that somogyi had peaked. I said that he may have changed his voicing over the years and that his earlier guitars may uave more tonal bloom and responsiveness than his recent ones that nay have more separation. You may like the latter while others may like the former.

Fourthly i do evaluate guitars on a one by one basis. Im not making any blanket statements. i acknowledge that an individual guitar of somogyi's may not be preferred to a given ezample of another maker. What i said was - if and when somogyi knocks it out of the ballpark, very few luthiers will be able to hit it as far, figuratively speaking. I say this based on the evidence of one of his guitars which i believe represents such a alignment of powers on his part.

[SiliconValleySJ]

I really think this discussion has gotten a bit far out here. Some of these claims are getting ridiculous. For example that Traugotts are better than anything that comes out of SCGC. I've played a couple SCGC OMs that I would rather own than the Traugotts I've played. And that's because Traugotts, while I acknowledge are precise and clear, just don't do it for me though I can certainly recognize their qualities.

All of us listen. Or at least, I think there should be some benefit of the doubt we do because this is an enthusiast site. We don't plunk down serious money for guitars just because. We do it because we love them. We just have different ears and like different things (preferences). And yes, some ears may be better at discerning certain things. Mine are very picky--one of Ervin's apprentices happens to think my ears are great and likes my input on his finished products. That's doesn't mean my preference is more valid than anyone's though. For example, there are some great enthusiasts and players here locally--they are far better players than me--but when we go to Stevie Coyle's shop, we have very different experiences with what we prefer and don't.

BTW, that's what I like about Jim Olson's approach--build the best product, know it will have natural variation, and some will like one variant more than another. (For some it's a dud, for another it's gold) That happens with every luthier no matter how controlled the product is. (Yes, that includes those who tap to try achieve a measurable frequency too) I believe Jeff has the same approach as well.

My experience has been I've liked some Sands guitars and others I didn't. I wasn't blown away by any. I'm not saying they aren't good quality guitars. They are. They are just not my cup of tea. I think that's a pretty fair statement. Anyways...

Back on topic. OP, it looks like a beauty and I hope it's exactly what you want! I really like that washi paper look.

[Adamski]

...that we have a passion for guitars.

You are right, clearly we need to be very impressed to part with our hard-earned cash for something which is, for pretty much everyone on hear, a discretionary purchase.

When all is said and done, we are talking about whether Rembrandt is better/worse than Constable (or whatever other analogy you care to make) and I think we can all pretty much agree that every one of us would be pretty happy with any of the guitars that we are pontificating about.

I can honestly say that each Sands has been exceptional, and whilst ExpoTom & gitarro have played a few of them, they have only played them when they've been newly strung up in the workshop and consequently have not perhaps heard what they are really capable of.

I have had two of mine for nearly a year, and one for a couple of months and I would defy any person to find me a (significantly) better guitar from any builder at any price. As I said, everyone who has played one of my Sands' has either ordered from Tom on the spot or is thinking about how they can afford to order one (having recently spent loads on other guitars), and that is the greatest recommendation for his talents that we can see.

As things stand the quality/performance/price balance is just right because there is no other builder of whom I am aware that has such a high strike rate of converting demos in to purchases.

I am incredibly happy with mine, and everyone else is incredibly happy with theirs...

[gitarro]

I have not played any tom sands guitars. I woupd expect that they play very well and sound great as suggested by the clips. I was merely making a cautionary point on expectations for the sake of readers as seen above.

[ianLP59]

Guys...The purpose of my original post was a pretty simple one and can be summed up thus. I have a new guitar made by Tom Sands that was delivered to me personally last weekend - here are some pictures of it...

The Sands OM lives in a room with :

Sobell Martin Simpson Signature MK II - European spruce / Brazilian rosewood
Sobell Model 0 12 fret - European spruce / Brazilian rosewood
Ralph Bown OM - Sitka spruce / Brazilian rosewood
Fischer Concerto - European spruce / African blackwood
Åstrand Å-OM - Swiss spruce / Madagascan rosewood
Collings 0001-ASB - Adirondack / mahogany
Collings 001H - Sitka / Indian rosewood

Of all the above, the only one I would be willing to part with is the Collings 001H, not because it's a bad guitar but it simply doesn't really get played enough (offers..?). The Collings 0001-ASB is outstanding, a real one-off totally nailed-it guitar from a boutique maker. The rest are all world-class luthier built instruments. The Sands OM sits in there just fine. It's a great guitar and I'm very happy with it.

A young pal of mine who is a phenomenal fingerstyle player was over last night to see and play the Sands. I got an e-mail from him this morning of which the most relevant part reads

"Another really great guitar you have there".

So there we have it. I'm basically very happy with my new Sands OM.

Tom was fascinated by the above collection and took his time examining them in detail. Unsurprisingly, he was thrown a little sideways by the Sobells as they are built very differently from just about anything else. The Bown OM he admired particularly, both from a workmanship point of view (Ralph is a very tidy wood worker) but also from a materials perspective. The Bown's back and sides are of perfectly quartersawn Brazilian of a quality that is largely unobtainable now. The guitar was originally built for fingerstyle virtuoso Clive Carroll which is why he used some of his best wood stash for it.

The question that remains is...what do I get next ?

Take it easy,

Cheers,

Ian

[jmagill]

Originally Posted by ianLP59

The question that remains is...what do I get next ?

How about one of these?