How to get a BIG acoustic sound.

[Ty Ford]

"Big" can be perceived at least two different ways. There's the Phil Spector "wall of sound" big, and there's the Windham Hill "space" big. They are on opposite ends of the spectrum.

The Phil Spector big is highly layered, large and dense. The Windham Hill is big because the arrangement is very sparse and the reverb gives you the impression that the space in which the piece is recorded.

The biggest error beginning acoustic guitar players make is recording too many guitar tracks. They're usually to similar and clutter the space. It like painting with only one color. Been there, done that, don't do it any more.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Cue Zephyr]

What about the 'in your face' big?

Here is one of my simple double-tracked recordings that I find to sound 'not-small' in a certain way.

But you're probably looking for a big sound like heard here. Or is it something different entirely?

[Fichtezc]

To Slimey, I hope you didn't take that as a "I think your tone is bad." It's most certainly not! Just not exactly what I am looking for! And like I said, I really like the song. I'm going back to school tomorrow morning and I'm going to try a few of these new recording techniques.


And to Redavide, that's a good analogy. I'll probably do the pair of SMs turned up and try to avoid the phase canceling and then do some of the tweaking mentioned. Then I'll also try one with that and the pickup. Then one with a condenser close and the pickup.

To Cue, I would be very happy with the file you uploaded for strumming and stuff when I sing and the guitar isn't a solo instrument but for finger style I really want it like the video you linked. I was actually about to post Rylynn as my "holy grail" tone. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsD6uEZsIsU

Now he's also using a Lowden I believe, a very nice one. But still.



EDIT: Basically I should say I want my recordings to sound like Trace Bundy's or Andy McKee's albums. Now obviously, I'm realistic haha. I have a home studio with about 500 dollars worth of equipment not including my laptop but I want to get as close as I can.

[alohachris]

Aloha Cue,

Wow! That IS a Big Sound, CUE! Great job of spelling it out for the OP. And of course, I'd also remind him that a big guitar body has nothing to do with big recorded acoustic guitar sound. It's in the miking & mixing skill.

Eh Cue, mind telling us about your setup, pattern, mic's, config's, etc. for that clip? I mean, it is a recording forum, right? I'm gonna save that one!

All the best!

alohachris

[Doug Young]

Note that Andy often records with a pickup. The video Cue posted certainly sounds like there's a pickup in the mix. Joyland is recorded with the K&K and 1 mic. Maybe what you're calling "big", others might call "direct", or "in your face", which a pickup will give you, at the cost of some realism. Andy also has lots of reverb on this video, less on his latest CD.

[Fichtezc]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Note that Andy often records with a pickup. The video Cue posted certainly sounds like there's a pickup in the mix. Joyland is recorded with the K&K and 1 mic. Maybe what you're calling "big", others might call "direct", or "in your face", which a pickup will give you, at the cost of some realism. Andy also has lots of reverb on this video, less on his latest CD.

Yeah, I must admit it doesn't sound entirely natural. I want the "in your face sound" right now. Maybe I'll back off from that at a later date but I know what I want now. I hear he has a lot of reverb but when I use a lot it tends to sound washed out. Maybe I'm using the wrong kind?

What kind of processing would be done with the pickup and single condenser mic? I take it you wouldn't pan....or would you? That's the closest thing I have right now since I don't have two similar condensers.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Fichtezc

What kind of processing would be done with the pickup and single condenser mic? I take it you wouldn't pan....or would you? That's the closest thing I have right now since I don't have two similar condensers.

There's no magic formula. Just as you can see that no one agrees on what "big" means, there's no set way to get the sound you want.

Stepping back a few feet, my suggestions for someone like you wanting to record solo guitar are:

1) Have appropriate gear. That doesn't have to mean expensive. If starting from scratch, I'd start with one of the Zoom recorders, which are perfectly capable of creating an awesome sound, and cost about the same as a couple of SM57s for the whole system. Worry about moving up from there after you've learned to get a great sound from them, and reached their limit. If you don't have a minimal set of gear, and a suitable space to record in, time to start asking around and see what your friends have that you can borrow, or go visit them. Sometimes its simply better (and cheaper) to go record someplace that has the right setup, or has more experience, than to do it yourself.

2) Experiment like crazy. Working with what you have, try stereo SM57s, try a pickup alone and with the mic(s). Try pickup/mic hard panned, try them centered, try them slightly panned. Try them EQd (maybe all the highs rolled off on the pickup and the bass rolled on of the mics). Try putting reverb on one of them and not the other, etc, etc. Listen and try things till you like the sound. Be sure you can actually hear what you're doing - you need decent monitors of some kind. You should be able to get a decent sound from stereo SM57s. If you can't, you need to experiment until you figure it out.

3) Related to point 2: Many times people confuse the sound of a recording with the performance. You need the right sound going in before you can even worry about details like mic placement. If you want to sound like one of Andy's tunes, learn to play the tune, even just one measure of it, and use that as a test case. Compare your recording to Andy's and keep trying things until you get closer. There are tools that can be used to help you understand, to compare frequency response, stereo image and so on, but your ears are the cheapest, and perhaps most educational way to do it. What you may find (I know I do) is that the biggest barrier to getting a sound that mimics someone else's recording is your technique, tone, and phrasing, not the recording setup. There's no magic mic setup that can make you sound like Andy if you're not getting his sound to start with. The easiest way to start to get a handle on this is to be working with the same tune.

Finally, going back to point 1. Understand that you're setting a goal to sound like a pro, who uses pro gear, and has pro recording engineers helping him. That's a great goal, and you can certainly come close on a budget, but at some point, it's like saying you want to have a great steak dinner tonight, but all you have is a pack of hot dogs :-) Not going to happen, tho you should be able to make those hot dogs taste really good! Again, I'm not saying you have to spend a ton of money, it's more about learning to use a what you have, but having at least a minimally appropriate setup makes it all much easier. At the same time, there are always ways to work with what you have. There are people here who have posted fantastic sounding recordings using just a pickup (Joe Hanna, I think, for example?). His recordings don't sound "just like Andy", but they sound very good.

[Fichtezc]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

There's no magic formula. Just as you can see that no one agrees on what "big" means, there's no set way to get the sound you want.

Stepping back a few feet, my suggestions for someone like you wanting to record solo guitar are:

1) Have appropriate gear. That doesn't have to mean expensive. If starting from scratch, I'd start with one of the Zoom recorders, which are perfectly capable of creating an awesome sound, and cost about the same as a couple of SM57s for the whole system. Worry about moving up from there after you've learned to get a great sound from them, and reached their limit. If you don't have a minimal set of gear, and a suitable space to record in, time to start asking around and see what your friends have that you can borrow, or go visit them. Sometimes its simply better (and cheaper) to go record someplace that has the right setup, or has more experience, than to do it yourself.

2) Experiment like crazy. Working with what you have, try stereo SM57s, try a pickup alone and with the mic(s). Try pickup/mic hard panned, try them centered, try them slightly panned. Try them EQd (maybe all the highs rolled off on the pickup and the bass rolled on of the mics). Try putting reverb on one of them and not the other, etc, etc. Listen and try things till you like the sound. Be sure you can actually hear what you're doing - you need decent monitors of some kind. You should be able to get a decent sound from stereo SM57s. If you can't, you need to experiment until you figure it out.

3) Related to point 2: Many times people confuse the sound of a recording with the performance. You need the right sound going in before you can even worry about details like mic placement. If you want to sound like one of Andy's tunes, learn to play the tune, even just one measure of it, and use that as a test case. Compare your recording to Andy's and keep trying things until you get closer. There are tools that can be used to help you understand, to compare frequency response, stereo image and so on, but your ears are the cheapest, and perhaps most educational way to do it. What you may find (I know I do) is that the biggest barrier to getting a sound that mimics someone else's recording is your technique, tone, and phrasing, not the recording setup. There's no magic mic setup that can make you sound like Andy if you're not getting his sound to start with. The easiest way to start to get a handle on this is to be working with the same tune.

Finally, going back to point 1. Understand that you're setting a goal to sound like a pro, who uses pro gear, and has pro recording engineers helping him. That's a great goal, and you can certainly come close on a budget, but at some point, it's like saying you want to have a great steak dinner tonight, but all you have is a pack of hot dogs :-) Not going to happen, tho you should be able to make those hot dogs taste really good! Again, I'm not saying you have to spend a ton of money, it's more about learning to use a what you have, but having at least a minimally appropriate setup makes it all much easier. At the same time, there are always ways to work with what you have. There are people here who have posted fantastic sounding recordings using just a pickup (Joe Hanna, I think, for example?). His recordings don't sound "just like Andy", but they sound very good.

That's really some great advice. I deeply appreciate it and value it. Thank you.

for 1.) I'm pretty set in the gear I have now that I have purchased for electric guitar/ recording for my band and it works really well for that. I have a fair amount of experience when it comes to amps and drums, not much with acoustic instruments however. I guess that just means I need to get the skills for acoustic recording as well.

2.) I'll definitely continue to experiment as much as I can. I have a decent set of monitors and also a nice set of headphones that I use for placing a mic on an amp when it's cranked. Should I use the headphones or record and then play back to listen to mic placement? I've heard headphones don't give you an accurate stereo representation or something like that.

3.) I know Art of Motion and I am working on making it musical as opposed to the mechanical way I learned it. I'll record a version of that and compare to his.


Once again, thank you so much.

-Zach

[alohachris]

Aloha Zach,

Hey, that was some great common sense advice from Doug Young. He is so cool! And, yes, what he was saying is to start simple, have the bare essentials in place AND UNDERSTAND HOW TO USE THEM through simple trial & error, & to do your homework.

Where to start? As Doug suggested, a small Zoom recorder like the H4n & a pair of small diaphragm condenser mic's for stereo recording the acoustic guitar is a good start AND/OR a simple DAW on your computer - like the free Garageband on Mac's or free download Audacity for PC's.

Note: Our friend Cue Zephyr here uses an S/D Oktava MK-012 cardioid condenser & a CAD M179 L/D variable pattern condenser to get his BIG sound. Both are very affordable. I prefer a matched pair of S/D's for most stereo miking though. Read up on why most players & engineers do for solo guitar.

It might help to see what others here use for their recording signal chains - relative to recording acoustic guitar. Here's a long thread I started here over a year ago as I was refining my DAW recording rig that might help with suggestions:

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=164654

No matter what level you are recording, you'll need some form of improved ROOM TREATMENT, unless you already have a studio in place with your band. Room Treatment is the single largest variable in the whole darn chain - even more than the equipment! It doesn't have to be expensive or permanent. Go to Ethan Winer's site to get the overview. And check out Fran's great DIY treatment video here:

http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009/...on-the-cheap/\

You Will Need That, Zach. Don't save it for later. The mic's & preamps simply cannot be maximized without good room treatment. You also severely limit your miking options without treatment of most rooms. I learned that for myself after investing many thousands into high-end mic's & pre's only to find that the largest improvements in my sound resulted through simple room treatment improvements.

Here are a couple threads to give you an idea about how to mic an acoustic guitar:

http://www.guitarists.net/lessons/view.php?id=170

http://www.humbuckermusic.com/acguitrectec.html

Start with a coupla S/D condensers & a digital recorder and proceed slowly, learning how to track, edit, mix & master in that simple mode first. You can build on that knowledge as you get further into better, more complex signal chains.

As you progress, you'll start thinking about & PLANNING the SUM of the parts of your chain as you PLAN & choose your gear for it. That's an important concept that can save you thousands in the long run by not buying stuff that does not complement the rest or your sound.

Think about mic & pre combo's as you progress, not just one or the other.

Check out the sites where pro engineers hang out. Much more info there, IMO, lots of it related to recording acoustic guitars:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/forumdisplay.php?f=21
http://homerecording.com/bbs/
http://www.taperssection.com/

& many, many others!

Zach, it's the nuts 'n bolts, hands-on knowledge - not the gear at this point- that's most critical in you getting the sound you seek.

As Doug said, many players go down the recording road only to find that it's better to work with someone who already has that knowledge & a studio. But whatever knowledge you get out of this process will well-serve you in future live or recording applications.

BTW, Candyrat Studio's often used Andy McKee's K&K Trinity Pickup System along with a Rode NT-4 stereo mic on his earlier stuff. That's the bassier quality that you say you're seeking. As was mentioned, using pickup's in recording hasn't been historically preferred. But it is changing a bit & you should try everything for the comparative knowledge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSnWhsmlGec

Do you see all the wooden stuff in the walls of the booth Andy's playing in? You should check out why they built/use such a booth, & why none of the walls in it are even parallel.

Do the homework, Zach. And the best of luck to ya.

A Hui Hou!
alohachris

PS: One final tip regarding EQ. Take away from &, don't add tone to EQ typically. Using more EQ can detract from the "feeling" of a recorded acoustic guitar. That's why using pickups hasn't been preferred - ya often gotta EQ them more, which can compress the sound of an acoustic guitar. Andy only uses his pickup for the round bass & it's well back in the mix. -alohachris-

[Fichtezc]

My market for new equipment is pretty limited seeing as I just purchased my Taylor. It hurt my pocketbook quite a bit.

As for a DAW, I've used Garageband on my mac for all of my electric recordings and I'm pretty comfortable with is and a lot of the AUs I have downloaded.

As for room treatment, I'm starting to get that it's pretty darn important. My issue is I don't have a single room. I record at school 7 months out of the year and even there I sometimes do it in the practice rooms and sometimes in my own room. I could potentially set up my basement at home but I'm only here for a few months and weeks here and there out of the year. My treatment with my band is hanging up some curtains and blankets and carpeting the floor. Pretty lofi.

Thanks for all of those links, I've read most of them at one point or another, especially when I got into recording amplified instruments.

And as to the room Candyrat uses, I know a lot of the reasons why it's built the way it's build. I got really interested in making a room myself a little while ago. I have never had the resources however. I'm really eager to learn more though!

Thank you for the detailed response! I really appreciate both Doug's and your responses! They've given me much to chew on.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Fichtezc

Should I use the headphones or record and then play back to listen to mic placement? I've heard headphones don't give you an accurate stereo representation or something like that.

Most people will tell you not to mix with headphones, they sound different. I'd say good headphones are preferable to bad monitors, or listening in a bad room, but you'd need spend a lot of time critically listening to reference recordings in the headphones so you know what you're listening for. I often use headphones when setting up mics, but only as a first pass. I can't tell you how many times I've thought I had a great sound in phones, only to listen to it on speakers, and yuck. The benefit of recording yourself is that you can spend as much time as needed doing trial and error - and no one but you needs to hear the error part.

[Ty Ford]

Headphones (good ones) are also helpful during mixing when you're adding reverb and other effects. Get the effect levels where you think you want them in the monitors, then put the headphones on. Usually, you have way too much when you listen in the headphones. Since at some point, someone will listen with headphones. It's good to check, but take 'em off when you mix most of the time.

Regards,
Ty Ford

[rick-slo]

As others have said it depends on what you mean by a big sound. For me the ideal is to get notes that have a lot of body on them but where the recording remains clean and detailed. For solo guitar I am not so interested in a big sound if by that one simply means a wide and deep sound stage, usually obtained by reverb and usually at the expense of clarity.
I think it is helpful to hear what others consider a good sound and here are a couple of sound clips I think are fine recordings.

Our own Howard Emerson
http://www.howardemerson.com/music/c...al-lake/02.mp3

and Pete Huttlinger
http://www.petehuttlinger.com/music/i_got_rhythm.mp3

There are many others and some classical guitar recordings are simply lovely sounding.

[Ty Ford]

I think this track, recorded here, is pretty and big.

http://www.vimeo.com/2179144

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Fichtezc]

To Rick, the Howard Emerson one is great! I like it a lot. It sounds great to my ears and I would put that on my iPod. Same with other one. Those sound so good. After looking around on Doug Young's website a lot I feel like PART of my problem may well be my room. Most of my recordings sound a lot like the ones he did in his "untreated" garage. But the sound I want is exactly what he has after the room has been treated. Obviously I still need to practice technique too.

To Ty Ford, that sounds **** good too. It's a little too live for my taste I think? But I would be quite pleased to turn out something that sounded like that.

I can't say it enough, I'm so appreciative for the responses you guys are giving. I'll have some sound clips up within the next 2 days or so when I'm back at college.