At what point does an arrangement become your own?

[jklotz]

I've been learning various fingerstyle arrangements of mostly rock songs. I try to learn the whole thing, but usually change things up a bit. Maybe dropping a variation, dropping or adding a pre chorus, reworking a solo section, etc. I always credit the arranger when I post them, as I don't feel that I wrote it, just changed it up a bit.

So at what point does an arrangement become your own?

[Lamenramen]

Is it possible for you to arrange a song straight from listening to the studio version or a non-guitar instrumental version?

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by jklotz

I've been learning various fingerstyle arrangements of mostly rock songs. I try to learn the whole thing, but usually change things up a bit. Maybe dropping a variation, dropping or adding a pre chorus, reworking a solo section, etc. I always credit the arranger when I post them, as I don't feel that I wrote it, just changed it up a bit.

So at what point does an arrangement become your own?

No specific point. It becomes your arrangement for those parts you rearranged. It does not really become your tune or song at any point.

[Mr. Jelly]

I don't know. I steal bits and put them together with other bits in a way that I like. I got into song arrangements and chord sequences. I went over more than a thousand traditional jazz tunes along with guitar country rags and then slid back into old time country mountain folk tunes and flat picking fiddle tunes. I have a large amount of tunes I've kept to refer back to. I noticed that about any idea I might ever have has been done in some form if I look hard enough. So I do those songs instead of writing one.

I was reading an interview of Norman Blake yesterday and he said when asked about a certain song that he doesn't do the song like the original. He doesn't do it in the same form and doesn't do it in the same time signature or the same accents. Evidently he used the same title.

[Howard Emerson]

Originally Posted by jklotz

I've been learning various fingerstyle arrangements of mostly rock songs. I try to learn the whole thing, but usually change things up a bit. Maybe dropping a variation, dropping or adding a pre chorus, reworking a solo section, etc. I always credit the arranger when I post them, as I don't feel that I wrote it, just changed it up a bit.

So at what point does an arrangement become your own?

Perhaps you mean to ask at what point will people recognize a song but recognize that it's JKLOTZ playing it?

Probably at the same point that they'll hear anything at all and know that it's you playing.

Having an identifiable style is a very nebulous quest, and while it's a very noble chase, I don't think one can actually set out to find that place.

It certainly helps to be extremely musically opinionated, by which I mean that you have to have a strong feeling about how things should be done musically.

By 'should be done' I mean in order to satisfy your personal criteria.

Regards,
Howard Emerson

[Gitfiddlemann]

Originally Posted by Howard Emerson

Having an identifiable style is a very nebulous quest, and while it's a very noble chase, I don't think one can actually set out to find that place.
Regards,
Howard Emerson

Hi Howard,
Timely post. I spent the whole afternoon sitting across from you yesterday.
I had been listening to your CDs recently. You may recall teaching me your great tune "Dew Rag" years ago. Back then you were doing it with VHS tapes. I still had the tapes in storage, but decided to convert them over to DVD so I could revisit those lessons with my current laptop.
What a treat listening to you again imparting all those insightful playing gems as you go through the live lesson. I had a blast, and am re-learning that great tune all over again.
But getting back to the OP and having an identifiable style. I think you have achieved that. Or maybe it's your own distinct sound. I suppose it helps that you write all your own material. Coming from my end, I pick up certain things that you do that drew me to the tune to begin with, and try to reproduce that for my own enjoyment. It's what I do also with tunes from other artists. Probably not the most creative approach, but it still has its place in terms of just enjoying playing.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by jklotz

…So at what point does an arrangement become your own?

Hi jk

For me it's when one stops playing someone else's licks, in their original keys, tempo, and with the original form (exact order of intros, verses, chorus, bridge etc).

Create your own version. Change the key, or change the tuning, or the style, and form.

When I arrange other people's songs into arrangements, I shoot for about 2:00-2:20 length, not the full-play album versions. TikTok and Instagram have shown people prefer short…and it applies especially to live music…

…unless you like the sight of people (other than family members in attendance) pulling out their phones and surfing while you play/sing.

[TBman]

It never really becomes my own, unless I wrote it.

Generally I don't like changing someone else's arrangement. I may add some little things, but I rarely subtract from what is there.

[Doug Young]

If you reduce a full production of a rock or pop song down to a fingerstyle tune, it's going to be your arrangement - it's literally impossible to play everything, drums, bass, vocals, rhythm guitar, lead guitars, etc, so you're going to end up with something that's your take on it.

I will relay a slightly different viewpoint I ran into when I interviewed Sergio Assad some years ago for Acoustic Guitar. He differentiated a "transcription" from an "arrangement". To him (and maybe this is a common view in the classical world, I don't know), figuring out how to map the parts of a song to the guitar, including figuring out how to map the notes to a more limited musical range was a "transcription". (He had me puzzled at first because that's not how I'd define that term). But basically, I understood him to mean more or less mechanically converting the tune to fit on the guitar without any fundamental change. "Arranging" in his terminology meant something more dramatic - a re-envisioning of the piece. I think of something like how some of the classical composers took simple folk melodies and created entire symphonies out of them, so different structure, different harmonization, variations and so on. I think it's a slippery slope, because mapping something like a rock vocal tune to instrumental acoustic guitar does involve a lot of re-imagining even to play something basic.

All in all, I'd say that unless you're learning someone else's fingerstyle version, it's your arrangement.

[Howard Emerson]

Originally Posted by jklotz

I've been learning various fingerstyle arrangements of mostly rock songs. I try to learn the whole thing, but usually change things up a bit. Maybe dropping a variation, dropping or adding a pre chorus, reworking a solo section, etc. I always credit the arranger when I post them, as I don't feel that I wrote it, just changed it up a bit.

So at what point does an arrangement become your own?

Here's a couple of perfect examples of arrangements that became the de facto version that everybody else copied:

The original version of Fever was done by Little Willie John (it's my favorite despite having heard it many years after the famous cover). The de facto version of it is by Peggy Lee.

The original version of Mystery Train is by Junior Parker. The de facto version is by Elvis Presley.

I do arrangements of both these songs, and my arrangements are very much unique, especially Mystery Train.

I don't even quote Scotty Moore's riff.



Here's my studio version of Fever, which is instrumental, and I definitely reference Little Willie John's original version.

https://soundcloud.com/user-676357162/fever

If you got nothing new to say, play the old records. It's why cover bands (and for that matter Epcot, et al) don't hold any interest for me.

Regards,
Howard Emerson

[Howard Emerson]

Originally Posted by jklotz

I've been learning various fingerstyle arrangements of mostly rock songs. I try to learn the whole thing, but usually change things up a bit. Maybe dropping a variation, dropping or adding a pre chorus, reworking a solo section, etc. I always credit the arranger when I post them, as I don't feel that I wrote it, just changed it up a bit.

So at what point does an arrangement become your own?

I forgot about this Elvis tune. Can't Help Falling In Love. I'm sure you know how it goes. I did a studio recording of it, but I like this live version, despite the signal to noise ratio.

I manage to get everyone's attention around 1:55.



I'm still impressed with my ability to ignore the loud talking:-)

HE

[NormanKliman]

Originally Posted by jklotz

...I always credit the arranger when I post them, as I don't feel that I wrote it, just changed it up a bit...

As others have said, somebody else’s composition is always going to be theirs and your arrangement is yours, but I think it depends on how much you put into it. I play "Insensatez" ("How Insensitive") and got a feeling for it from listening to Charlie Byrd’s version. I think I got one chord from it and the rest of what I play is my own, inspired by Sinatra’s singing in that recording of his with strings (really nice; look for it if you haven’t heard it). So, in that case, I’d call it my own arrangement.

I nearly always change a few details to suit my hands or my guitar. For example, in Steve Howe’s “(The) Clap,” I use alzapúa technique to play that last descending run before the B7 chord toward the end. I think it’s really cool and sounds better, but that’s about the only thing I play differently and would never say that my version of the tune is my arrangement. I don’t really think about these things, but I guess I’d have to change at least half of the original before I called it my own arrangement.

Originally Posted by Doug Young

...He differentiated a "transcription" from an "arrangement"...

I don’t know about Brazilian Portuguese, but transcripción in Spanish means notation for a different instrument and transcription in English refers to notation for the same instrument or a different one. Just a wild and uninformed guess, but, if the word has the same meaning in Brazilian Portuguese as it does in Spanish, maybe that’s part of the reason for his distinction.

Howard, that is some fine playing on those tracks!

[Nama Ensou]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

If you reduce a full production of a rock or pop song down to a fingerstyle tune, it's going to be your arrangement - it's literally impossible to play everything, drums, bass, vocals, rhythm guitar, lead guitars, etc, so you're going to end up with something that's your take on it....I'd say that unless you're learning someone else's fingerstyle version, it's your arrangement.

Best post of the thread and I'll just add that a personal arrangement is going to differ notably from the original, and key changes alone won't make it a new arrangement, but feel and presentation are very important components of a new arrangement.

[Nymuso]

I don't know offhand what my total repertoire is in terms of numbers; but I can tell you every song I play, every one, is torn down and built back up to fit the vocal and instrument I have to work with, i.e., one voice, one guitar.

So, can I "cover" Stevie Wonder's Overjoyed? No. I don't play keyboard and I don't have a band. Can I play it? Sure - but it's my own arrangement. Has to be.