Guitars Improving with Age?

[Tailingloop]

I was discussing guitars with a friend and the subject of finish came up. (S)He said that guitars without a finish would improve with age.
I would like to know if that has any truth to it, and if it in fact is true, how does that work? I mean, saying that something improves in tone is entirely subjective, and if the tone changes, I guess he ment that it gets warmer over time, but how can age make the wood warmer? And why wouldn't a guitar with a shiny finish not improve because of it?

Any thoughts?

[HHP]

I wouldn't imagine a guitar without finish could last long enough to test the theory.

[rkl245]

All guitars change some over time, improve or not is your opinion.

Keep in mind the inside of all guitars is unfinished.

[Doubleneck]

Wood chemically changes over time, that's a fact. Most think this enhances the tone.

[Herb Hunter]

Since the general feeling is that guitars tend to sound somewhat better with age, the presence of a finish doesn't seem to be factor.

In my experience (my custom classical guitar is 37 years old; my 814, age 16), the change described as a warmer tone, doesn't seem to apply. I would describe the improvement as increased resonance but I have no illusions about how reliable auditory memory is.

While there are many conjectures, I haven't seen any studies that shed light on why guitars seem to sound better as they age.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Tailingloop

Any thoughts?

Hi Tl...

(S)he was part right.

All solid wood guitars without finish would improve with age - providing they survive.

All solid wood guitars with a proper finish will improve with age as well.

It has to do with the wood, not the finish.

[DRodgers]

My Martin sounds different today, then it did two years ago. To me, the sound is fuller and the volume seems to have increased. Also, the right hand attack seems smooth. My newer guitar is a little stiffer in the right hand attack right now. Keep in mind, it is brand new and has a different top wood, so I imagine that I am "breaking it in" and it will feel similar in the right hand attack after more playing time. I am a firm believer that guitars change over time. Why else do you think so many people love the sound of a pre-war Martin.

[roadbiker]

I watched a YouTube video of James Taylor going through is guitar room where he showed and talked about a few of his guitars. In this video he claimed that, unlike violins, etc., guitars do not get "better" with age, they just wear out. I completely disagree, although he probably knows far more about guitars than I do.

On the question of finish, I disagree with your friend. I had a very old and valuable cello that I sold to a rather famous/important modern day cellist. In the process of rejuvenating my cello to sell it, the finish was examined and refreshed. They did not dare refinish it because the original finish is an important element in the sound and overall tonal response of the instrument. I saw/heard him play "my" cello a couple of months ago in Athens, GA (UGA) and it sounded fantastic. In fact, "my" cello was the talk of the evening - even though the other members of the string quartet were playing Stradivarius instruments... all also with their original finishes.

The type of finish, how much, and how it is applied are a critical element in the tonal value of the instrument, so I cannot agree that an unfinished guitar ages better than a finished guitar. Different perhaps, but not better.

Jim

[HHP]

All my guitars, regardless of age, sound better today than they did 5 years ago. During that 5 years, I've experimented with strings, experimented with picks, adjusted set-ups, played so much that I got better, so I know what I did, can't say what the guitars themselves did while I was doing it.

[imwjl]

A lot of disk space and bandwidth gets used on this so effective searching could help the OP.

I'm smiling because I played a 1937 Martin recently. The response to hybrid picking a D chord and low E hammer on were an instant clue as to why those who can afford to pay much for special instruments.

I never found the opening up to be the explosion of tone many describe but my aged, well traveled and well played Martin dread was always great sounding and more responsive than new models of same guitar. A Larrivee I bought new could coax out the tone on upper frets better after 1.5 years.

One curious bit is my Santa Cruz started out amazing, still is amazing, but hasn't opened up as much relative to others. Richard Hoover said my guitar while not with exotic materials started out with older wood than most new guitars, and also said the individual guitar just came out very well.

I am sure wood changes and know the 2 x 4s are different in our old cabin than what I buy now but I'm also convinced you can't ignore making the guitar well to begin with.

[Doubleneck]

There was on discovery channel a show last week where they had a violin that was supposed to be a Stradivarius. One of the tests they used was to shine a bright light on the wood. With newer wood the light will shine through it. Wood as old as a real Stradivarius will be opaque to light. It really is chemical changes over time that changes the character of the wood. The violin ended up being a multi million dollar Stradivarius.

[Sir_YubYub]

I would like to apologize in advance if this has been done before. I read a lot about guitars sounding "better" as we play them over the years but I'm wondering if it's the player that improves more than the guitar itself. For example if someone has a prewar martin how do we know that it sounds better today than it when it was new without having heard that exact guitar being played when it was first made. You might answer that you have an old recording of that guitar from all those years ago but even then I'm sure that the way we record acoustics has changed to reflect the new technologies ofthe times. I'm not trying to start anything I just wanted to complain a little because it's annoying that after I have spent so much time practicing that when some of my friends hear me now they say, " WOW! That guitar sure has improved in tone since you bought it!"

[GibbyPrague]

I think to the innexperienced ear it might be difficult to tell. My wife thinks all my guitars sounds the same.

But once you've been playing for a while, understand the different tone woods and the type of tone they deliver, shapes, sizes, brands, and then compare new vs old of the same model you can usually tell a difference.

To me older models have a dryer, woodier, more balanced tone, if we talk about Gibsons older examples have more of a 'grumpier' voice then their modern cousins, but dont ask me to quantify that .....

There is a clear difference to the experience ear.

[GibbyPrague]

I agree wholeheartedly that guitars get better with age .... but I wonder how much of that has got to do with us getting better with age as players .. hmm ?

[Glennwillow]

Hi Sir YubYub,

Even if your guitar has improved with age -- and it might have or might not have -- it doesn't play itself. I'm sure you have a great deal to do with the good sound.

We have discussed this subject a lot on the AGF, but not lately.

A lot of builders and players do believe that guitars change over time, though it is very hard to prove one way or the other. There also seems to be some consensus that some guitars will change more than others. But there are plenty of people that are somewhat skeptical that any meaningful changes are occurring, and instead, suggest that the notion that guitars "open up" is just a sales tool.

It seems that the best agreement on this subject we have had on the AGF is that a player should purchase a guitar based on the way it sounds when he/she buys it. If it gets better later, then it's a bonus. If it doesn't improve, that would be okay, too.

The fact that players who really go after learning the guitar are likely to improve also complicates the whole equation. Is it the guitar or is it the player or all of the above? My thought is, if the overall sound gets better, we all win.

How does the guitar change, if it changes at all? My own experience is that guitars tend to acquire a little more bass and seem to sound and feel slightly looser, less tight. But the difference from new to "opened up" is generally pretty subtle, and not all guitars go through this subtle change.

- Glenn