2012 Takamine P5J: what is this finish and how repair?

[woodsman]

Hi all, complete n00b to AGF, thanks for patience and your help.

Came across a 2012 50th Anniversary Takamine P5J with a big scratch across the bottom back and a smaller whack on the side. Here's the guitar full frontal:

p5jfront.jpg

This guitar sounds great both unplugged and plugged and it has the CTP-2 CoolTube in it rather than the CTP-3 it originally shipped with. Plays beautifully.

Here is the Big Scratch:

p5jscratch1.jpg

p5jscratchdetail1.jpg

Here is the Small Whack (somebody tried to fix? about 7 mm in size):

p5jsmallwhack.jpg

After reading here and elsewhere, am I right in thinking this is a lacquer finish of some kind and not poly? I've worked on and built a lot of plank-and-stick guitars where poly is the common topcoat and this is my first excursion into the world of well-made acoustic guitars. Never seen white spots "blooming" out of a scratch before.

Have emailed ESP/Takamine asking these questions but not holding my breath for an answer.

1) What finish did Takamine use on this guitar?

2) Does anyone have suggestions as to how to repair these blemishes on an otherwise great instrument? Or maybe not to repair at all?

Thanks everyone!

[runamuck]

With a finish problem like that you will probably make it worse unless you have experience. So I'd suggest either leave it alone or take it to someone with expertise.

And BTW- the cost to repair that may be more than the guitar is worth.

[woodsman]

Thanks runamuck. EPS did get back to me, surprise, and says the finish is polyurethane. Still wondering because I've never seen poly do that.

Do have some experience with 2K poly on electrics. EPS says

Takamine guitars use a polyurethane based finish. From the photograph you provided, the finish appears to be separating from the wood and base coat, causing the bubbling illustrated. This can occur from a dent that does not break the finish, or from excessive heat causing the finish to slightly part. We suggest contacting a local repair shop or finish specialist to assist you with this repair, as generally the finish will need to be removed and reapplied to address this.

So EPS agrees with you runamuck. Fortunately I bought this guitar already so there is no other customer involved.

Bought this guitar in part to start learning how to work on well-made acoustics, and also because I like jumbos.

Only way I know how to learn is to do, carefully, with a plan based on adequate research. I have a relationship with a good local shop and if all goes well may apprentice there, having just retired from my former day job as a data architect/engineer. Time for a visit, clearly.

P5Js in good condition still fetch in the $1100-1200 range apparently. Solid spruce top and solid rosewood back, laminate rosewood sides. The CTP-2 preamp still goes for $300+ asking on reverb. Surely this is not a $1000 repair?

Thanks again and please anyone jump in if you can help!

[RonMay]

Originally Posted by woodsman

Thanks runamuck. EPS did get back to me, surprise, and says the finish is polyurethane. Still wondering because I've never seen poly do that.

Do have some experience with 2K poly on electrics. EPS says

Takamine guitars use a polyurethane based finish. From the photograph you provided, the finish appears to be separating from the wood and base coat, causing the bubbling illustrated. This can occur from a dent that does not break the finish, or from excessive heat causing the finish to slightly part. We suggest contacting a local repair shop or finish specialist to assist you with this repair, as generally the finish will need to be removed and reapplied to address this.

So EPS agrees with you runamuck. Fortunately I bought this guitar already so there is no other customer involved.

Bought this guitar in part to start learning how to work on well-made acoustics, and also because I like jumbos.

Only way I know how to learn is to do, carefully, with a plan based on adequate research. I have a relationship with a good local shop and if all goes well may apprentice there, having just retired from my former day job as a data architect/engineer. Time for a visit, clearly.

P5Js in good condition still fetch in the $1100-1200 range apparently. Solid spruce top and solid rosewood back, laminate rosewood sides. The CTP-2 preamp still goes for $300+ asking on reverb. Surely this is not a $1000 repair?

Thanks again and please anyone jump in if you can help!

Any guitar is worth fixing or repairing if you are not interested in commercial value. If the instrument is worth it to you, then **** the torpedoes and full speed ahead.

If you are wanting to learn then there is no better teacher than a mistake that you have to repair again, and again, and again........

There are many luthiers who would be glad to explain to you how the process they would use would go. There are probably as many methods as luthiers too.

Ron

[mirwa]

Definetly a catalysed poly-urethane. They get that real whiteness to the defect when they seperate from the material they are applied too.

After cleaning and sanding it smooth, get some blending thinners and add them to the new clear poly paint, catalysed finishes are hard to near impossible to burn into early coats but the blending thinners go a long way to reducing those witness marks you get in the different clear coats

Steve

[woodsman]

Thanks RonMay and mirwa. I've got a plan now, based on the original finish being catalyzed polyurethane. Received various GluBoost products today (author reports no conflict of interest). I am sure that many other vendors sell products that work as well or better, this is just the brand I know.

Plan is:

1) clean scratched area with naphtha and allow to thoroughly dry.

2) mask off one white spot at the end of the scratch with a glue and finish perimeter marker.

3) wick (or attempt to wick) ultra thin CA glue into the scratch starting right next to the white spot.

4) if the glue doesn't wick into the spot, make a tiny channel for it with an XActo.

5) spray with accelerator.

6) observe and evaluate result.

7) if things work as hoped, fix the rest of the scratch using the same procedure. then sand and polish.

8) if the result is unsatisfactory, guess again.

My friend at the shop says the white spot will become transparent when the glue hits it, and recommended the XActo hack.

We shall what we shall see. Your recommendations and comments are very welcome. This is so much more fun than twiddling bytes.

[John Arnold]

You have outlined a method I have used, wth varying degrees of success. The normal failure is incomplete wicking, so there will still be a halo or witness line where the CA is not reaching to the edge of the delamination. You need the thinnest CA you can get for the wicking. I am committed to using odorless CA, since I am allergic to the fumes. It is not as thin as some, and is the reason I don't always get full coverage on those where the separation from the substrate is small.
I do use GluBoost accelerator, and I really like it for touchups.

[phavriluk]

If the problem was mine, I'd be taking the guitar to a luthier and ask that a minimal repair be done, won't be invisible but it will look like somebody cares, especially that whatever-it-is spot on the side.

I would NOT be trying do do a high-skill job with no experience in finish repairs.

[woodsman]

Thanks John and phavriluk. Will post results when they're as good as they're going to be, should be a day or two.

John, you're right, even with the thinnest CA there were some spots that didn't wick. I guess it ended up 90-95% filled. You are also right that the unfilled spots were those farthest from the original scratch, or slice as it appears to me. Whatever made that mark was sharp and the damage went all the way down into the wood in places.

phavriluk, I agree that it ideally would have been best to let an experienced pro do the repair. I'm not entirely inexperienced with guitar finish work though, just inexperienced on acoustics in general and Takamines in particular. Counterarguments: 1) I can't get any experience without doing the work myself, and a primary goal here was learning 2) I'm an old guy without funds to pay other people to do work for me. This goes for plumbing, cars, everything really. But you're right, if repair quality were the only constraint.

Everyone interested will soon be able to see the result of my folly . It ain't perfect but we may be able to agree it's a substantial improvement.

[RonMay]

Originally Posted by woodsman

Thanks RonMay and mirwa. I've got a plan now, based on the original finish being catalyzed polyurethane. Received various GluBoost products today (author reports no conflict of interest). I am sure that many other vendors sell products that work as well or better, this is just the brand I know.

Plan is:

1) clean scratched area with naphtha and allow to thoroughly dry.

2) mask off one white spot at the end of the scratch with a glue and finish perimeter marker.

3) wick (or attempt to wick) ultra thin CA glue into the scratch starting right next to the white spot.

4) if the glue doesn't wick into the spot, make a tiny channel for it with an XActo.

5) spray with accelerator.

6) observe and evaluate result.

7) if things work as hoped, fix the rest of the scratch using the same procedure. then sand and polish.

8) if the result is unsatisfactory, guess again.

My friend at the shop says the white spot will become transparent when the glue hits it, and recommended the XActo hack.

We shall what we shall see. Your recommendations and comments are very welcome. This is so much more fun than twiddling bytes.

I've seen some RSW (Rosa String Works) videos on Ytube and often he uses a brush with water and brushes the water into the area to be mended and wipes off the surface. He then uses the thin CA glue holding the guitar in such an angle that gravity helps along with the water for the glue to flow / wick into the area to be mended.

You might try that on a small area to see if the water actually helps the
CA glue wick where you want it.

Good luck amigo.

Ron

[woodsman]

RSW is the real deal. Watching him work is like watching Eric Johnson play in a way. So much native ability and care in combination with decades of skill development.

Photos up tomorrow if all goes well, have a kitchen faucet to replace today, the entertainment never ends. Waiting for the Virtuoso cleaner and polish, supposed to be here today.

Thanks for the good words Ron. I'm not entirely satisfied with the result but it is a genuine improvement in my opinion.

[woodsman]

As promised. Not done yet but here's the current state.

Tried to make these as unflattering as possible .

scratch:

p5jscratchphase1complete.jpg

lint caught in photo on the left, sorry. more work to be done.

whack:

p5jwhackcomplete1.jpg

probably will leave this as is. the really visible thing is about 5mm in diameter.