One more reason to learn standard notation

[clintj]

Bought a book of Christmas music yesterday, a collection of duets for guitar and other C instruments. Got halfway through one song playing the tablature and hit a really discordant note, so I started comparing the tab to the standard notation above and realized that the person writing the tab had put in an F instead of F#. Nothing like being a minor second off from the soloist. Now I'm proofreading the rest of the book.

[HHP]

Typos can't occur in standard notation?

[mr. beaumont]

Not the point...had he not been able to read the notation....

[clintj]

It was on the final chord of O Christmas Tree in D. The notation called out a D chord, and was written as a first inversion. The C instrument parts were playing an F# and a D at the same time. Add my playing a Dm on top of that, and you get a collective "eww". Haven't found another typo yet, knock on wood. I can't read with any kind of speed whatsoever, but I can read key signatures and count lines and spaces.

[Mooh]

I find tab typos rather regularly in published music tab. Correct it and carry on. Additionally, some tabbed fingerings are simply weird, as if no player could have proofread the piece.

My music writing software (Finale Print Music) will tab on command though it doesn't work out the best fingerings, but it does let me correct/modify fingerings.

[clintj]

Originally Posted by Mooh

...Additionally, some tabbed fingerings are simply weird, as if no player could have proofread the piece.

I would have sworn one of my books was wrong on the fingering of Chet Atkins' E9 chord (xx9774) in Mister Sandman until I watched him play it on youtube. That is a crazy reach I can almost make on a short scale guitar. It's getting the middle and ring fingers in place that kills me. I'm with you, though. I've seen some weird ones before.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by clintj

...Nothing like being a minor second off from the soloist. Now I'm proofreading the rest of the book.

Hi clintj...

Before I respond, I read notation.

I would have expected any of my students to have pre-screened the piece before ever adding a soloist to the mix, and they should have been able to deduce and correct the issue long; without having to resort to comparing TAB to notation.

They all have ears, and unless you are going for a particularly strident last chord, I'd expect that they'd hear it, know it was wrong, and fix it.

And I really hope you have better things to do with your time other than proofreading a published book.

[Dalegreen]

one of the very few universal written languages on the planet, regardless of any cultural barriers....... music notation

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Dalegreen

one of the very few universal written languages on the planet, regardless of any cultural barriers....... music notation

Hi Dale...

I have a friend who is an Ethnomusicologist, and he works among primitive cultures/villages/people groups.

According to his past 25+ years of experience, there are thousands of small culturally unique, primitive villages around the globe who have no written version of their spoken language (much less written musical language).

Some are 8 tone (simple major scale, but no reference tone) with no chromatic variants, others pentatonic, and a couple have sub-divided our semi-tones. All teach music by rote to their next generation.

They have no knowledge of musical notation, but they are extraordinarily musical...some of them sophisticatedly so.

[Dalegreen]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Dale...

I have a friend who is an Ethnomusicologist, and he works among primitive cultures/villages/people groups.

According to his past 25+ years of experience, there are thousands of small culturally unique, primitive villages around the globe who have no written version of their spoken language (much less written musical language).

Some are 8 tone (simple major scale, but no reference tone) with no chromatic variants, others pentatonic, and a couple have sub-divided our semi-tones. All teach music by rote to their next generation.

They have no knowledge of musical notation, but they are extraordinarily musical...some of them sophisticatedly so.

of course , there are exceptions, as with anything. But in general, when I have played with others who speak different languages in different parts of the world, we all understand the written notation. I should have explained it as, "those who read music notation regardless of cultural differences", which would exclude those primitive villages

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Dalegreen

of course , there are exceptions, as with anything. But in general, when I have played with others who speak different languages in different parts of the world, we all understand the written notation. I should have explained it as, "those who read music notation regardless of cultural differences", which would exclude those primitive villages

Hi Dale...

Either a language is universal or it's not. If not everyone present can read, then it falls short of universal. I no longer believe notation is the most universal system for transferring 21st Century musical ideas outside the classical, jazz and studio realms.

I'd contend that audible music itself is 'language' not notation, which is a mere reflection of the music being played.

Written notation is one of several 'storage' or 'recording' systems which make it possible for us to transfer our music, and musical ideas, to others around us and to preserve it for succeeding generations.

But written notation is only one system for guitars. In the guitar world we have TAB, Lead line plus chord charts, Jazz charts, Nashville charting, lyric sheets with chords above lyrics, as well as video and audio recordings which are also all viable 'systems'.

While notation has great value to me (especially when I'm working with keys or horns/saxes/winds), I'd say I rely more on other forms these days.

When I see a guitarist play something I really like, I approach them after the gig and tell them how much I liked a particular lick or part of a song they played, and ask them to show it to me again. (I've not been refused so far)

If they agree, I ask "May I take a picture?" (with cell phone in hand set to the movie app on my iPhone). So as they play it, I record it.

I've never approached one to ask if I could TAB or notate the passage as they played it for me.

And when I'm playing with people from other musical cultures than mine, I default to 'show-me-that-again…please' rather than notation.

If I lived in the classical, jazz, or studio realm, I'm sure notation would be more in play.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Dale...

Either a language is universal or it's not. If not everyone present can read, then it falls short of universal. I no longer believe notation is the most universal system for transferring 21st Century musical ideas outside the classical, jazz and studio realms.

"Outside" of those realms, I don't think it ever was, even before this century.

However, just to nitpick (pedantically) : your first and second sentences are right. But you then use the phrase "most universal", which your first sentences would (rightly) suggest is nonsense . It may be the most widespread, or the most useful (both debatable). It's certainly hard to deny it's the most widespread and most widely understood "system for transferring musical ideas" in written/printed form.

Music is, of course, sound (and nothing but), so once audio recording had been invented (and then film and video, for technical assistance) then notation was bound to start losing ground.
The fact it continues to survive is testament to a value it has which audio and video - even in their much handier 21st century forms - don't have.
It's certainly still cheap, and offers a uniquely visual sketch of form. When you look at notation, you have to hold less in your head than when learning from audio or video.
If you had to learn a speech, wouldn't you like to have the words written out, rather than (or at least as well as) an audio recording of it?

Naturally it's still only an outline sketch at best; "some information about the music" rather than the music itself. But that sketchiness is itself important: we have to fill in the rest ourselves, which is a good thing; it allows (demands even) some personal input and creativity in interpretation.

Originally Posted by ljguitar

I'd contend that audible music itself is 'language' not notation, which is a mere reflection of the music being played.

Of course. I don't think anyone would seriously pretend otherwise.
The language of music is an aural one; sounds in time.

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Written notation is one of several 'storage' or 'recording' systems which make it possible for us to transfer our music, and musical ideas, to others around us and to preserve it for succeeding generations.

Exactly.
Obviously audio preserves pretty much 100% of the information, while notation offers (hard to estimate) maybe not much more than 10%.
But there's a great advantage in only having that 10%. Beethoven etc managed well enough (the rest being personal tuition and listening to live music).
Audio recording not only preserves all the crap as well as all the good stuff, but it can encourage too much respect for the past. (I'm not saying I'd be without it ; but it's a double-edged sword.)

Originally Posted by ljguitar

But written notation is only one system for guitars. In the guitar world we have TAB, Lead line plus chord charts, Jazz charts, Nashville charting, lyric sheets with chords above lyrics, as well as video and audio recordings which are also all viable 'systems'.

True.
When it comes to written/printed information, notation (generally) provides the most important details in the most economic way, but - as I say - having limited information is not a bad thing, which is why TAB and the others have their uses (dependent on how much information you need in various scenarios).

Originally Posted by ljguitar

While notation has great value to me (especially when I'm working with keys or horns/saxes/winds), I'd say I rely more on other forms these days.

When I see a guitarist play something I really like, I approach them after the gig and tell them how much I liked a particular lick or part of a song they played, and ask them to show it to me again. (I've not been refused so far)

If they agree, I ask "May I take a picture?" (with cell phone in hand set to the movie app on my iPhone). So as they play it, I record it.

I've never approached one to ask if I could TAB or notate the passage as they played it for me.

Well, neither would I, because it would simply take far too long. It would be like going up to someone and ask if you could take a picture of them, and then sit down and sketch them, instead of using the camera in your pocket!

In your situation, if I didn't have a camera, I would get the person to show me and then play it myself until I thought I could remember it. But as soon as I could, I'd probably notate it as well, to make sure I didn't forget it. I could of course, record myself playing it, but that's too fussy, at least with my current equipment, and also too hard to access later on. (Where did I store that MP3??)

[Dalegreen]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Dale...



But written notation is only one system for guitars. In the guitar world we have TAB, Lead line plus chord charts, Jazz charts, Nashville charting, lyric sheets with chords above lyrics, as well as video and audio recordings which are also all viable 'systems'.

While notation has great value to me (especially when I'm working with keys or horns/saxes/winds), I'd say I rely more on other forms these days.

When I see a guitarist play something I really like, I approach them after the gig and tell them how much I liked a particular lick or part of a song they played, and ask them to show it to me again. (I've not been refused so far)

If they agree, I ask "May I take a picture?" (with cell phone in hand set to the movie app on my iPhone). So as they play it, I record it.

I've never approached one to ask if I could TAB or notate the passage as they played it for me.

And when I'm playing with people from other musical cultures than mine, I default to 'show-me-that-again…please' rather than notation.

If I lived in the classical, jazz, or studio realm, I'm sure notation would be more in play.

Yes, I agree with your points, but once again I guess my comment was too generalized. All I am saying is, music notation is read globally. I did initially comment it as "universal language", my error.
Of course there are many ways to interpret the language of music. And coming from a classical and then jazz background, my only form of reading has been notation. I do find tab somewhat useful, and I do use the latest sibilius notation software for all of my chart writing (for students). At least now the tab can reflect pretty much all the nuances that notation can. But with that said once the written text gets a little more complicated, lets say Isaac Albenez "Asturius",
following notation is much , much easier to follow (imo) and likely saves another 7 sheets of paper.

[jaylynch@yahoo.]

I like being able to read notation because it is easier to see, for my 67 yr eyes. I've noticed that when music is written in tab and notation that notes on the staff are easier to make out than the numbers on the strings. Also, it's easier to work out timing for more difficult passages.

On the question of proofreading a new piece of music, I believe if it's wrong, you'll hear it. If you don't, probably no one else will either.

Agree that the most important aspect of learning a piece is listening to it. Sometimes the notation/tab can be more of a stumbling block if you already know your way around the fretboard.

Jay Lynch