Strumming and Flatpicking with Closed Right Hand

[TNTaylor414]

I've been experimenting with this for the past week now and I'm definately sold on strumming with a closed hand. My hand feels like it's alot more free as opposed to strumming with an open right hand lightly brushing the pickguard. I think I'm getting a better sound on my strums too, although I'm not sure why. The feel I'm getting is just so much better, my playing feels more dynamic and I'm all of a sudden being more creative with my strumming patterns, it's great!

Little background: I've been playing for about 10 years now and have always thought the best way to go about it is to do what comes natural and that's what I've been doing, until I hit "the wall". For the past 2 years I've been playing mostly Bluegrass (lovin' it!), and as most of you know speed is a major factor. When it gets to a certain speed, I have alot of tension, both flatpicking and strumming. I need to be more economic with my technique.

Then there is flatpicking single notes without posting my pinky finger lightly on the pickguard. I am severely struggling with this. No accuracy at all. My hand feels a lot more free and I can definately see the benefit of sticking with it, IF I can get the hang of it in the end. Little worried I might be wrecking my playing because going back somtimes and planting a finger almost feels awkward and restricting now. Wondering if it's worth going one step backwards for a while to maybe take two or three steps forward in the future.

What works best for you? I'm sure there are folks out there that play both ways, but as anyone made a conscious effort to change from being a planter? Tips?

Thanks for any help!

[HHP]

Key is to keep wrist and forearm free. My anchor is actually at the elbow where I come over the lower bout. Just have to give it enough time to develop an intuitive feel for where the strings are relative to the pick. Might try an exercise where you play open strings 6_5_4_3_2_1, 1_2_3_4_5_6 then skip so its 6-4-2, 2-4-6, 5-3-1, 1-3-5. Go through the patterns using D-U-D-U pick pattern.

[TNTaylor414]

Originally Posted by HHP

Key is to keep wrist and forearm free. My anchor is actually at the elbow where I come over the lower bout. Just have to give it enough time to develop an intuitive feel for where the strings are relative to the pick. Might try an exercise where you play open strings 6_5_4_3_2_1, 1_2_3_4_5_6 then skip so its 6-4-2, 2-4-6, 5-3-1, 1-3-5. Go through the patterns using D-U-D-U pick pattern.

Yes, I am looking for some kind of anchor. I've tried lightly resting the underside of my wrist on the bridge pins but the wrist angle was too awkward. Pulling the pick through the strings without my pinky planted is harder. I guess before I was using my pinky as a lever to somehow pull/push the pick through the strings. Of course, without planting, my depth control of the the pick is gone. Sometimes too deep with the pick, sometimes missing the string entirely.

[HHP]

Originally Posted by TNTaylor414

Yes, I am looking for some kind of anchor. I've tried lightly resting the underside of my wrist on the bridge pins but the wrist angle was too awkward. Pulling the pick through the strings without my pinky planted is harder. I guess before I was using my pinky as a lever to somehow pull/push the pick through the strings. Of course, without planting, my depth control of the the pick is gone. Sometimes too deep with the pick, sometimes missing the string entirely.

How much of the pick tip is exposed in your grip? Try to keep it around 1/8" or 3/16".

[TNTaylor414]

That's another good point, HHP. I use a pretty thick pick (BC TPR 60), and I try to hold down towards the bottom 1/3rd of the pick to let the pick articulate in my fingers some. I found that the closer that I hold to the end, the tighter the grip has to be, maybe not. Just now tryin it, that helps alot.

EDIT: Actually measuring it, I'm about 1/4" or 5/8".

[jcmccorm]

Interesting question as I've been working on this issue myself. I'm learning Bluegrass and started with some bad habits and wanted to break them (sooner the better).

I would recommend the book "The Guitar Player's Guide to Speed, Accuracy, and Tone" by Brad Davis and Dan Miller. I *think* it's part of Dan's Flatpicker's Essentials series so it's geared towards flatpickers.

He has a section on right-hand position and mentions three ways to do this; Floating, Posting, and Gliding.

Floating is what you're working on now; loosely closed right hand. They list the benefits as your hand being able to remain relaxed and fluid as well as the pick attack being more consistent. The downside is that the only anchor (as you mentioned) is your elbow so you lose accuracy and control. The authors concede that many players are fine with this (ever seen Steve Kaufman play? He keeps his hand closed and is amazingly fast and accurate).

Posting is anchoring. You can either anchor your wrist on the bridge pins (tried it and didn't like it for the same reason you didn't) or anchor fingers on the pick-guard. The benefits are having a close reference point for accuracy but your pick-attack is variable and your hand is not as relaxed.

Gliding is what I've taught myself to do (I was an anchoring guy). Let a couple of fingers glide across the pick-guard. It's a "best of all" compromise kind of deal and what the authors recommend. For myself, I've noticed my right hand tensing up from time to time so am interested in at least spending some time trying the "floating' right hand technique.

The authors don't call any of these methods "wrong", just that there are benefits and drawbacks to each.

Hope that helps. I'd be curious how your work on "floating" turns out for you.

Cary

[KarlK]

A good pick-less closed hand strummer to observe is Ryan Adams.

Here he is doing "Do I Wait" -- a very simple song with all first position chords.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E25EaXY0gBg

He'll occasionally use his thumb to strike specific notes, but many of the pull offs and hammers are carried mostly by left hand transitions while the strumming occurs.

[Special B]

Originally Posted by TNTaylor414

I've been experimenting with this for the past week now and I'm definately sold on strumming with a closed hand. My hand feels like it's alot more free as opposed to strumming with an open right hand lightly brushing the pickguard. I think I'm getting a better sound on my strums too, although I'm not sure why. The feel I'm getting is just so much better, my playing feels more dynamic and I'm all of a sudden being more creative with my strumming patterns, it's great!

When you strum with the middle, ring, and pinky "open", they do not support the index finger. This means that the thumb is pushing against the index finger (to hold the pick), which causes the index finger to deflect, which then requires more force from the thumb. The extra effort from the thumb locks the wrist, which makes strumming less fluid and natural.

Strumming with a closed hand allows the middle, ring, and pinky to support the index finger, which allows the thumb to hold the pick with less force. This allows the wrist to be more relaxed and limp, which improves the tone and rhythm of the strumming. It also allows for faster strumming, more control of dynamics and mutes, and playing longer without fatigue.

[TNTaylor414]

Thanks for replies guys.

I may end up strumming with a closed hand and then switching to gliding for lead lines. I think I already "glide" more than I "post" when I get warmed up. I'm going to stick with it for a while though. I'll see where I'm at in a month and maybe report back. Would like to know how you're coming along as well jcmccorm.

I don't see myself trading accuracy for speed in the end though. That's one of my pet peeves. I push myself pretty hard to try to play cleanly.

Special B- I've tried to support the index with the middle finger while picking out lead lines to try gain speed before. I just thought, hey, more fingers pulling the pick through the strings might be faster. I didn't consider that I was countering the force of the thumb and maybe staying more relaxed. Makes sense. Thanks for bringing this up, I will work with it some more.

Thanks

Shawn

[HHP]

Originally Posted by TNTaylor414

Thanks for replies guys.

I may end up strumming with a closed hand and then switching to gliding for lead lines. I think I already "glide" more than I "post" when I get warmed up. I'm going to stick with it for a while though. I'll see where I'm at in a month and maybe report back. Would like to know how you're coming along as well jcmccorm.

I don't see myself trading accuracy for speed in the end though. That's one of my pet peeves. I push myself pretty hard to try to play cleanly.

Special B- I've tried to support the index with the middle finger while picking out lead lines to try gain speed before. I just thought, hey, more fingers pulling the pick through the strings might be faster. I didn't consider that I was countering the force of the thumb and maybe staying more relaxed. Makes sense. Thanks for bringing this up, I will work with it some more.

Thanks

Shawn

Not sure how you grip the pick currently. If you curl your index finger, lay the pick on the flat area created, then bring the thumb down to lock it in. Curl in remaining fingers or just middle and ring to close the grip. This grip also keeps the hand, wrist, forearm more or less in line.

[TNTaylor414]

I think that's what I do, HHP. I've played some with keeping everything in line from wrist angle to reaching around the bottom of the guitar (kinda like Tony Rice) to keep everthing in line. My arm just isn't long enough and I'm 6'1.

I don't know if you can tell much from these vids, but here are a few that I did to check out my own playing.

Trying to get the timing on this break down. Any thoughts on that are appreciated:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehvcDspuF0I

Longer break with some strums:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJsDFJ79-xQ


This is the recording that made me think I needed a change. My right hand technique in this vid disgusts me. I think I was having an off day that day though, I never float my right arm above the guitar like this. I usually rest my bicep or forearm on the side of the guitar. Pretty sketchy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Sc88WH1Xf4

I'm a D U D U picker too, HHP.

[HHP]

Originally Posted by TNTaylor414

I think that's what I do, HHP. I've played some with keeping everything in line from wrist angle to reaching around the bottom of the guitar (kinda like Tony Rice). My arm just isn't long enough and I'm 6'1.

I don't know if you can tell much from these vids, but here are a few that I did to check out my own playing.

Trying to get the timing on this break down. Any thoughts on that are appreciated:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehvcDspuF0I

Longer break with some strums:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJsDFJ79-xQ


This is the recording that made me think I needed a change. My right hand technique in this vid disgusts me. I think I was having an off day that day though, I never float my right arm above the guitar like this. I usually rest my bicep or forearm on the side of the guitar. Pretty sketchy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Sc88WH1Xf4

I'm a D U D U picker too, HHP.

You're probably a little harder on yourself than you need to be. No real obvious issues or problems in those videos, maybe clean up the right hand and commit to what you're playing. Just takes time but nothing you are doing should disgust you.

[TNTaylor414]

Thanks HHP. That makes me feel a little better. I think I spend too much time on youtube watching my guitar heros play. Pretty easy to get down on your playin' after watching those guys.

[jcmccorm]

Hey TNT, that sure looks good to me!

The last one was a little unusual as you pointed out but you still maintained accuracy and timing without having your bicep/elbow as a reference.

Cary

[TNTaylor414]

Thanks jcmccorm.