Why do so many have a negative view of carbon fiber?

[ac]

Carbon fiber composites are epoxy resins and carbon fiber. The resins are a very high tech "plastic". But the term "carbon fiber" is universally used in academics, industry and common conversation because it is more accurate than using the term plastic.

With properly made carbon fiber composite, the majority of the weight of the material is carbon fiber, hence carbon fiber simply makes sense as the shortened version of carbon fiber composite.

So even though Martins, Taylors, Gibsons and so forth are encased in plastic or polyester except for the fretboard, and the players hands otherwise never actually touch "real" wood--they only touch and feel plastic--I'd still call them wood guitars because wood is the majority component.

I call carbon fiber guitars "carbon fiber" by the same reasoning.

[mchalebk]

Originally Posted by ac

Carbon fiber composites are epoxy resins and carbon fiber. The resins are a very high tech "plastic". But the term "carbon fiber" is universally used in academics, industry and common conversation because it is more accurate than using the term plastic.

With properly made carbon fiber composite, the majority of the weight of the material is carbon fiber, hence carbon fiber simply makes sense as the shortened version of carbon fiber composite.

So even though Martins, Taylors, Gibsons and so forth are encased in plastic or polyester except for the fretboard, and the players hands otherwise never actually touch "real" wood--they only touch and feel plastic--I'd still call them wood guitars because wood is the majority component.

I call carbon fiber guitars "carbon fiber" by the same reasoning.

Well said.

[Steve Christens]

Originally Posted by ac

Carbon fiber composites are epoxy resins and carbon fiber. The resins are a very high tech "plastic". But the term "carbon fiber" is universally used in academics, industry and common conversation because it is more accurate than using the term plastic.

With properly made carbon fiber composite, the majority of the weight of the material is carbon fiber, hence carbon fiber simply makes sense as the shortened version of carbon fiber composite.

So even though Martins, Taylors, Gibsons and so forth are encased in plastic or polyester except for the fretboard, and the players hands otherwise never actually touch "real" wood--they only touch and feel plastic--I'd still call them wood guitars because wood is the majority component.

I call carbon fiber guitars "carbon fiber" by the same reasoning.

As an industrial polymer chemist and boat builder I get a kick out of how bent out of shape some folks get over the term "plastic". I think it partially has to do with the old plastic ukeleles that used to be available.

The resin or "plastic" content of carbon fiber composite construction is actually about the same as the resin content of GRP (glass reinforced plastic) fiberglass boats - or about 50%. So they are really about as much "plastic" as they are CF if you think about it. And if I am showing one of my CF guitars to a friend I usually tell them it's made of plastic just to see their reaction. Or maybe it would sound better if we said it was made out of the same stuff as the new Airbus 380?

[gitnoob]

Here's the formula for polyethylene terephthalate (a resin): (C10H8O4)n

Here's the formula for lignin (the stuff in wood): C9H10O2,C10H12O3,C11H14O4

They look kinda similar to me.

[ac]

Originally Posted by Steve Christens

. . . . The resin or "plastic" content of carbon fiber composite construction is actually about the same as the resin content of GRP (glass reinforced plastic) fiberglass boats - or about 50%. So they are really about as much "plastic" as they are CF if you think about it. . . .

Several sources I checked in the past each stated that the approx. ratio of 55% CF to 45% resin creates the optimum properties for both strength and weight and this ratio changes little unless the CF composite is poorly made.

If the early research for the optimum CF properties been found to be the reverse of this ratio, 45 to 55, I think it's possible that a different name other than "carbon fiber" would have come into common usage.

So it's true that it's 'about' 50%---but CF still dominates by about 5%. Not a lot of difference--but enough to claim dominance.

I don't know if this is true for the ratio used for fiberglass or not.

[Doubleneck]

We need to put this to rest, so as we know the Internet doesn't lie: correct. So a simple google search of the Internet shows you what truely is a plastic guitar. To be honest I already knew what it would be, and its a classic.

http://orgs.usd.edu/nmm/PluckedStrin...G40Guitar.html

Wonder what these are worth, and what the sound like, I have only seen them in books. We're just lucky its not Micky Mouse

[mchalebk]

While I understand that there are scientific reasons why a CF guitar might legitimately be called plastic, the fact of the matter is that there is a great deal of difference between what the general public perceives as plastic vs. carbon fiber. When something is called "plastic", it is generally perceived as cheap, likely to easily break, and made with inferior materials. When something is called "carbon fiber", it is generally thought of as expensive, durable, and made with superior materials.

It doesn't matter if there are scientific reasons why it might be legitimate to call a CF item plastic, when something is made from carbon fiber it is not what the general public considers to be plastic. Calling it plastic is demeaning. When most wood-loving guitarists refer to CF guitars as plastic, they're not referencing the scientific fact that there is some plastic involved, they are indicating that these are inferior instruments, not to be taken seriously.

And that's why I take umbrage at the term "plastic" when talking about CF guitars. These are serious instruments, have many advantages over wood guitars, and can sound as good as (or even better than) wood guitars.

[Acousticado]

Originally Posted by mchalebk

While I understand that there are scientific reasons why a CF guitar might legitimately be called plastic, the fact of the matter is that there is a great deal of difference between what the general public perceives as plastic vs. carbon fiber. When something is called "plastic", it is generally perceived as cheap, likely to easily break, and made with inferior materials. When something is called "carbon fiber", it is generally thought of as expensive, durable, and made with superior materials.

It doesn't matter if there are scientific reasons why it might be legitimate to call a CF item plastic, when something is made from carbon fiber it is not what the general public considers to be plastic. Calling it plastic is demeaning. When most wood-loving guitarists refer to CF guitars as plastic, they're not referencing the scientific fact that there is some plastic involved, they are indicating that these are inferior instruments, not to be taken seriously.

And that's why I take umbrage at the term "plastic" when talking about CF guitars. These are serious instruments, have many advantages over wood guitars, and can sound as good as (or even better than) wood guitars.

Exactly!

To add, in BlackmoresNight's thread in the General sub-forum where he asked if he should sell a vintage Gibson to fund a guitar...the Emerald Chimaera in his case...my post incuded the following...

"Note to those referring to a CF guitar as 'plastic': You can play with the definition of plastic all you want, but CF guitar discussions have been around here long enough that you absolutely know it is a 'sensitive' term among CF proponents and as such, is only being used with the intent of denigrating/cheapening what CF is all about. CF is a medium used in so many professional, expensive, finely-tuned creations from golf clubs, to prosthetics, to race cars. Time to get over it, stop using that term, and accept that CF instruments can be just as high quality as those constructed of wood, and have a definite place in the world of music...and only getting better."

For the most part, those using the term plastic are veteran players and even wood builders, who know better and are just trying to be antagonistic and demeaning.

[short bald guy]

And we wonder about people that will only consider guitars made out of wood?

[RP]

A word is simply a word, and if that word is able to ruin your own perspective and enjoyment of a particular instrument, I do believe that there's something else at play. I now own two inexpensive laminated guitars (LS6 & LL6) that I really love. Now, call them cheap plywood guitars and see how much that affects my opinion of them. The answer is not a whit....

[RustyZombie]

Originally Posted by jrporter

A word is simply a word, and if that word is able to ruin your own perspective and enjoyment of a particular instrument, I do believe that there's something else at play. I now own two inexpensive laminated guitars (LS6 & LL6) that I really love. Now, call them cheap plywood guitars and see how much that affects my opinion of them. The answer is not a whit....

I think people calling their carbon fiber guitars a derogatory term isn't really what is bothering them. I think it might be more the dismissive attitude that too many people seem to have in regards to carbon fiber. Some people really like their carbon fiber instruments, and as such, wish to see carbon fiber luthiery grow and evolve. The more I look into it the more I realize what's possible with carbon fiber that simply isn't possible with wood. Too many people not even giving carbon fiber a fair chance inhibits that.

[Steve Christens]

Originally Posted by Doubleneck

We need to put this to rest, so as we know the Internet doesn't lie: correct. So a simple google search of the Internet shows you what truely is a plastic guitar. To be honest I already knew what it would be, and its a classic.

http://orgs.usd.edu/nmm/PluckedStrin...G40Guitar.html

Wonder what these are worth, and what the sound like, I have only seen them in books. We're just lucky its not Micky Mouse

I remember reading somewhere that the sound was much better than you might expect for what was perceived to be essentially a plastic ukulele on steroids. If it really was made of "Styron", that's just a thermoplastic that will begin to soften around 100°C, so don't leave it out in the sun! It also does not appear to have any fiber reinforcement (like CF or fiberglass) so they had to be pretty fragile.

[HHP]

Originally Posted by BlackmoresNight

I think people calling their carbon fiber guitars a derogatory term isn't really what is bothering them. I think it might be more the dismissive attitude that too many people seem to have in regards to carbon fiber. Some people really like their carbon fiber instruments, and as such, wish to see carbon fiber luthiery grow and evolve. The more I look into it the more I realize what's possible with carbon fiber that simply isn't possible with wood. Too many people not even giving carbon fiber a fair chance inhibits that.

Why would you think that people who don't care for them haven't given them a fair chance? Understanding you have your reasons for liking them, isn't it possible others have equally rational reasons for not liking them? Surely you don't expect people to spend that kind of money on something they don't like in the interest of giving them a "fair chance".

[RustyZombie]

Originally Posted by HHP

Why would you think that people who don't care for them haven't given them a fair chance? Understanding you have your reasons for liking them, isn't it possible others have equally rational reasons for not liking them? Surely you don't expect people to spend that kind of money on something they don't like in the interest of giving them a "fair chance".

Straw man argument.

I never said that everyone that doesn't like them never gave them a fair chance. I simply said that too many people haven't given them a fair chance. If someone did give a carbon fiber instrument a fair chance and it wasn't for them, then that is completely fine. I never suggested otherwise.

[john marcus]

that cant be said.