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  #31  
Old 06-26-2014, 03:41 PM
MBE MBE is offline
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Originally Posted by usb_chord View Post
Steve, those are some of my favorite videos on the internet. Geez he's SO accessible! Andrew York....what a treasure.
Yep, I got lost listening to these and find myself suddenly caring less about whatever argument I was planning to make in this thread...
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  #32  
Old 06-26-2014, 04:26 PM
steveh steveh is offline
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Yep, I got lost listening to these and find myself suddenly caring less about whatever argument I was planning to make in this thread...
Yep - that's what it's all about. The guitar is nice (for 1888!) but pales beside the playing and composition.

Andrew York really is "a treasure". He is the main reason why I live in the "dark side" most of the time these days. Nylon is a real pain to play vs. steel-string but so rewarding.

Cheers,
Steve
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  #33  
Old 06-26-2014, 05:19 PM
Paultergeist Paultergeist is offline
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Originally Posted by brucefulton View Post
This is at odds with other published reports that Segovia used principally a single Manual Ramirez from around 1912 until acquiring his first Hauser in 1924. In 1928, Segovia began using a new Hauser constructed for him in consult with Miguel Llobet, which he played until acquiring another in about 1934. The 1924 Hauser went first to Sophocles Papas, and then eventually to Charlie Byrd and is now reported owned by a fellow named R. Riley.

I don't doubt that lots of guitars passed through Segovia's hands because, as you note, luthiers either built guitars for him in hopes of getting an endorsement, or dedicated guitars to him. But most published research I've seen indicates that Segovia used just a few Hausers during the golden years of his middle career and for his tours and recordings in the 30s - 50s. He switched to Ramirez in the 1960s........
Great synopsis, Bruce. It is consistent with everything else I have read on the topic. Thank you for putting that together.
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  #34  
Old 06-26-2014, 05:59 PM
brucefulton brucefulton is offline
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Originally Posted by BlackmoresNight View Post
I have a friend who was there who says your friend is wrong. I'm sure brucefulton has a friend that was there to that can't back up my friend.
My comments are from published research. and statements from the principals. And I'm only talking about his supposedly getting a new guitar every year. This doesn't jibe with what we know about his Hausers, at least from the 1920s through 1950s. He did say later that he thought one of his Hausers lost some of its sparkle after retirement, but that doesn't translate to a new guitar every year, although in the 60s when he was working with Jose Ramiriz III to build guitars that would stand up to nylon strings and concert volume levels, he undoubtedly tried out a few. As far as his dictatorial approach with his students, that is well documented - John Williams talks = and complains - about it.
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  #35  
Old 06-26-2014, 06:02 PM
bohemian bohemian is offline
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The "synopsis" leaves out Fleta and his relationship with the family and his difficulty with the guitars.

The "synopsis" is third hand information.

Again, I'll go with a direct source.

It is also well known and not included in the "synopsis" that the first Ramirez was not made by Ramirez but by Santos Hernandez. It was also a ten string converted back to a six string.
Stories have it that Segovia and Ramirez got into "discussions" about the price.

The "synopsis" does not include why and how Segovia began using Hauser guitars. That is a story in itself.

I have photos of George Bolin of Sweden attempting to get Segovia to try and to endorse his guitars. Close.. no lutefisk.

There are many makers who attempted to "curry" favor with Segovia.
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  #36  
Old 06-26-2014, 06:14 PM
mc1 mc1 is offline
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Originally Posted by bohemian View Post
...
The "synopsis" is third hand information.

Again, I'll go with a direct source.
...
isn't your direct source actually second hand information?
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  #37  
Old 06-26-2014, 06:24 PM
Paikon Paikon is offline
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Originally Posted by bohemian View Post

It is also well known and not included in the "synopsis" that the first Ramirez was not made by Ramirez but by Santos Hernandez. It was also a ten string converted back to a six string.
Stories have it that Segovia and Ramirez got into "discussions" about the price.

.
Ramirez site has the story of Segovia and his first guitar: Segovia went to Manuel's shop to borrow a guitar, Manuel was surprised but he gave him a cheap guitar to try. Segovia started to play and Manuel was so amazed by the tone that man produced so he gave him for free a guitar that he had made for a famous guitarist that he hadn't collected.
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  #38  
Old 06-26-2014, 08:42 PM
brucefulton brucefulton is offline
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My
Quote:
Originally Posted by bohemian View Post
The "synopsis" leaves out Fleta and his relationship with the family and his difficulty with the guitars.

The "synopsis" is third hand information.

Again, I'll go with a direct source.

It is also well known and not included in the "synopsis" that the first Ramirez was not made by Ramirez but by Santos Hernandez. It was also a ten string converted back to a six string.
Stories have it that Segovia and Ramirez got into "discussions" about the price.

The "synopsis" does not include why and how Segovia began using Hauser guitars. That is a story in itself.

I have photos of George Bolin of Sweden attempting to get Segovia to try and to endorse his guitars. Close.. no lutefisk.

There are many makers who attempted to "curry" favor with Segovia.
My "synopsis" is not a comprehensive history, but some information from published research sources that would indicate that it is probably not likely that Segovia had to have a new guitar every season because he thought they wore out after a year. That's all. A comprehensive history is beyond what we can do here. Of course a lot of things are left out.
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  #39  
Old 06-27-2014, 07:28 AM
softballbryan softballbryan is offline
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Default Do classical guitars "wear out"

OP... What podcast where you listening to that caused you to start this topic?... I am always on the lookout for podcasts...

Thanks
Bryan
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  #40  
Old 06-27-2014, 09:29 AM
Aaron Smith Aaron Smith is offline
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Segovia is not the only data point on this.

To me, Julian Bream's Romanillos was the greatest sounding classical guitar in history. (ok, maybe the player had something to do with it too. It is currently sitting in a museum somewhere, because it is thoroughly played out and has given up the ghost from a tonal standpoint.

Every guitar and player is different. Some may take 500 years to play out, some may take 5. But I think it's pretty well demonstrated that at some point, classical instruments can exceed their useful lifespan.
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  #41  
Old 06-27-2014, 10:21 AM
Paultergeist Paultergeist is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Smith View Post
But I think it's pretty well demonstrated that at some point, classical instruments can exceed their useful lifespan.
Aaron, I Actually do not think that this issue is "well-documented" - hence this lively debate.

For me, I ask "where are all these played-out guitars?". With all the many classical guitarists in the world, surely there must be some giant warehouse somewhere with piles upon piles of once-very-valuable instruments which are now barely suitable for a new student to learn upon? Yes, instruments made from organic materials are going to change over time, but I would think that virtually every large music store would have some example of a worn-out guitar to demonstrate the effect incurred over time.......yet I have never encountered this. It would also seem to me that -- if this were a fairly predictable effect -- that the acoustic laboratory folks would have studies showing the deterioration of performance of instruments over extensive playing
time. I see lots of third-hand speculation, but very little real data.
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  #42  
Old 06-27-2014, 10:24 AM
RustyZombie RustyZombie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brucefulton View Post
My comments are from published research. and statements from the principals. And I'm only talking about his supposedly getting a new guitar every year. This doesn't jibe with what we know about his Hausers, at least from the 1920s through 1950s. He did say later that he thought one of his Hausers lost some of its sparkle after retirement, but that doesn't translate to a new guitar every year, although in the 60s when he was working with Jose Ramiriz III to build guitars that would stand up to nylon strings and concert volume levels, he undoubtedly tried out a few. As far as his dictatorial approach with his students, that is well documented - John Williams talks = and complains - about it.
I was attempting to humorously point out the fallacious nature of the friend argument that bohemian was using.
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  #43  
Old 06-27-2014, 08:15 PM
jmiked0 jmiked0 is offline
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Originally Posted by Paultergeist View Post
I see lots of third-hand speculation, but very little real data.
Welcome to the internet. No, that's not my attempt to be cute, I'm serious. Just about every time I try to research something on the internet, there's pretty much zero hard evidence to be found.
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  #44  
Old 06-27-2014, 08:36 PM
TWork TWork is offline
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I believe it's the Classical Guitar Insider. Bret Williams is the guy who does it. I think you can find it searching in iTunes or here's a link: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...622648929?mt=2

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Originally Posted by softballbryan View Post
OP... What podcast where you listening to that caused you to start this topic?... I am always on the lookout for podcasts...

Thanks
Bryan
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  #45  
Old 06-28-2014, 07:41 PM
AfterViewer AfterViewer is offline
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Yes my friends, all acoustic guitars will dry out if not kept in a controlled environment like a fine cigar. My Yamaha (I own a number of guitars) will sing in the Spring after a long winter in the land of 4 seasons where I dwell, but never is she left in climatic conditions to even start drying out.

Last edited by AfterViewer; 06-28-2014 at 08:00 PM.
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