Home recording vocal and guitar

[Bob1131]

Originally Posted by Fran Guidry

Hey, Bob,

When I do something similar, aligning mics to minimize bleed while playing and singing, I'm doing it so I can tweak the tracks in post production. Often I wind up dropping one of the initial tracks and replacing it, so keeping bleed down is critical.

Since you're mixing ahead of the recording, this isn't an option for you. What benefit are you seeking and finding with this setup, compared to positioning a stereo pair so that it blend the guitar and voice "in the air?" Are you applying different EQ and effects to the vocal track while mixing?

Fran

I like the broad stereo sound that gives a solo guitar more depth and body over the sound of a mono track. When recording guitar to one track and vocal to another simultaneously, the sound stage is not in stereo, rather each is a mono sound that can only then be positioned at some location on the sound stage. Recording both vocal and guitar with just a pair of mics gives you stereo but with sacrificed tone because the mics must be far enough from the performer to catch both guitar and voice, unless you have two U87s, which I don't and never will have due to their high cost. The other problem with catching both voice and guitar with just two mics is mix volumes. If I position the mics to assure the vocal is louder than the guitar, I lose guitar tone in favor of vocal tone, not to mention this is dependent on how loud the guitar is. In live unamplifed settings, I find that I strain my voice trying to stay louder than my Guild 12 string which is very loud as opposed to my Taylor 6 string which is much softer by comparison.

Using three mics in the arrangement I experimented with, I can obtain a wide stereo sound for my guitar while getting warm vocals that result from a closer proximity to the vocal mic. Because each source is mic'd separately, I can EQ and set volumes appropriately to compensate for the different characteristics of my guitars.

As I mentioned in the opening post, I typically can achieve the desired sound by first recording the guitar part in stereo with two mics and then recording the vocal on another track or two. I then mix and bounce the four tracks (2 guitar and 2 vocal) down to two stereo tracks for mastering. The problem I run into is keeping the feel and emphasis in the song. It is much more natural and effective for me to play and sing together...my timing is better and the guitar dynamics are perfectly aligned with my vocals when performing them together. When separated by successive takes, I can achieve a tight guitar-vocal performance, but it is more sterile (for lack of a better term) and sounds rigidly timed and choreographed rather than naturally flowed from the same source.

Years ago I read that performing live and recording are two very different skill sets. I have a better appreciation for that statement now than ever before. I was a live performer for more than twenty years and the three mic set up allows me to record as a live performer rather than as a studio musician. Not perfect, but a good alternative to individual tracking for me.

[Sage97]

Very nice Bob. Thanks for sharing. I'm taking notes.

[jdawson]

Bob, That was a great post and demo, not to mention your voice and guitar playing is surperb. I'm somewhat of a novice in this area and would like nothing more that to get close to the sound you created. A couple of follow-up questions. What is the brand of mixer that you use. Also, I have been using a Mac and Apple's Garageband. Do you believe there is are any material quality issues with recording to the Mac vs a digital recorder? Also, I have been using a mic>preamp>record (MAC) set-up, with unsatisfactory results. I'm just guessing that the mixer is a big part of that, along with the 3 mics. Any thoughts?

Any information you can provide and/or recommendation you have would be appreciated. Like I said, I'm trying to get close to the quality of your recording.

Thanks,
john

[Bob1131]

Thanks, John, you are very kind. I am using a Yamaha MG124c mixer which is a stereo mixer. However, as long as you use a stereo mixer, I don't think the brand will make much difference. Digital stand alone recorders vs computer recording is just a matter of ease of use, and because each is recording digital, I can't see the potential for significant quality differences there, either; again, as long as you can record in stereo (two tracks simultaneously, with one panned left and the other panned right).

The Yamaha mixer preamps are good, but I'm sure individual preamps can be better. However, in an inexpensive home recording chain, I'm not sure that preamps would be the critical links in the recording chain. In my demonstration, I was trying to show that fairly good sound can be achieved with common dynamic mikes and recording equipment as opposed to expense condenser mics and programs. I think the most critical components in order of importance are:

1. Actual sound (a boxy guitar will always sound boxy and a thin guitar will always lack depth),

2. Room acoustics (too dead or too reflective just cannot be corrected with EQ)

3. Recorder and recorder capabilities (DAW or stand alone with EQ, effects, compression, limiter, etc.)

4. Microphone quality

5. Monitoring headphones and speakers

6. Preamp/mixer

I have heard great guitar recordings from just a Zoom H2 using its internal mics! The point being that expensive mics weren't used, no mixer, no big name preamp, no complicated recording program...but usually a quality guitar played in a good room.

Experiment, experiment and then experiment some more with your set-up and settings. Great recordings can be achieved with very modest equipment.

Does that help?

[Bob Womack]

Here is a third alternative that may yield some results for you: In the studio, when we are trying to get a track down, we will often use a rig similar to yours and record a scratch track. If we need a click, we'll set up the click first then record the scratch multitrack with instrument and vocals. Now we have a click, an instrument track, and a vocal track to guide the tracking. As you track the guitar, you can put the vocals and click in the headphones and just bleed the original guitar in a bit as a reference. If you track the vocals first, you can listen to the guitar and click and bleed the vocals as necessary.

And here's an idea almost no one considers: You can record a non-singing vocal guide track with instructions and warnings, ie. "1,2,3,4, one measure to the bridge, 1,2,3,4, bridge, 1,2,3,4, etc., coming up on the breakdown, 1,2,3,4, break..., coming up on the pickup, 1,2,3,4, pickup, 1,2,3,4, coming up, bass drops out, bass out, etc." It's amazing how these little things can both simplify and restore feeling when it comes time to overdub.

Often little things make a difference. I'll have an artist come in to record a new song and find that the lead vocalist is having trouble getting his vocal performance. I look at the vocal sheet and see that the words are tiny and lumped together. I call for a break, copy the document in Word, choose a clear typeface (Times Roman or Arial), blow up the font and double space to where a verse occupies a whole page, and the vocalist suddenly does better. He realizes he's been struggling to SEE the words, much less sing them.

Little stuff we do can help a whole bunch. Give yourself every break.

Bob

[Bob1131]

Great advice, Bob. About half of all my recordings started with a scratch track of guitar, vocal and click. It typically works well for me. I started playing with this 3-mic set-up because occasionally there is a song that I cannot seem to do right unless I play and sing it simultaneously. It must be a total muscle memory thing, or something. I think I will be using it for my scratch tracking from now on because I think it is easier to hear both guitar and vocal cues than when I use a mono guitar/vocal track.

I have never tried a vocal-instruction track, so I'll give that a try and see if it helps me. Thanks again for your valuable insights! It's great to get this type of info from the folks who do it everyday for a living!

[Kurt]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

And here's an idea almost no one considers: You can record a non-singing vocal guide track with instructions and warnings... It's amazing how these little things can both simplify and restore feeling when it comes time to overdub.

Little stuff we do can help a whole bunch. Give yourself every break.

Just want to say that I've learned so much from you over the years, Bob -- and now here's something new to add! I've always used a click track and scratch vocal/instrumental, and while I've always "mapped out" the song in writing, I've never thought before to create a vocal guide track. How simple -- and yet how miraculous an idea. I'm always grateful for the seemingly "little stuff" you offer that truly does give me "every break." Thank you!

[Bob1131]

Bumped because I referenced this thread in another posting, and this thread had fallen off the section contents list!