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  #16  
Old 04-04-2018, 04:45 PM
printer2 printer2 is offline
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Originally Posted by HodgdonExtreme View Post



I can watch for hours and hours...


But this is more applicable than just one harmonic resonator. Forget about the neck bending and causing intonation issues, it bend less than the top does, after all we did make the top flexible enough to move back and forth to make sound. I won't get into it but we have a few resonances that play a big part in sound production from the guitar, the top resonance, back resonance, and sound hole resonance. They do interact with one another and tend to push away from the adjacent resonance. As an example the top resonance of 180 Hz could be pushed down to 175 Hz due to the higher frequency back resonance.

Now the string is just another resonator. If one of the guitar resonances are strong enough, which you would get in a higher performance guitar, the guitar resonance could push the string resonance off what the string length says it should be. Whether that is what Taylor is getting at, it make things simpler if they just came out and said that.
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  #17  
Old 04-04-2018, 06:43 PM
HodgdonExtreme HodgdonExtreme is offline
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I've enjoyed your posts on the topic, printer, and also your build threads as well.

I make no claims of being an expert with resonances and vibrations; I've taken a few classes and understand the physics at a 600 level, but that's it.

I do realize the dynamic system that is a guitar is far, far more complicated than a simple harmonic oscillation; I was hoping to help people realize they can't (properly) consider a guitar as a static thing.

I've read SO many posts, referencing Taylor's intonation claim, that seem to refer to it as such. There's lots and lots of physics going on here!
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  #18  
Old 04-04-2018, 07:37 PM
gitarro gitarro is offline
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Originally Posted by HodgdonExtreme View Post
I've been reading posts just like yours for months now, and not been bothered to post a reply, but right now I'm feeling inclined.

I am an engineer, and while I'm not saying Andy/Taylor is "correct", the physical explanation Andy has provided thus far not only seems totally plausible, but intuitive to me.

If you accept it as fact that the whole guitar shakes and vibrates when the strings are vibrating, then you must also accept as fact, that the scale length(s) are constantly changing also. That implies that your perfectly scaled frets are, at some points in time, no longer perfectly placed. This would be in addition to the fact there are vibrations and springiness to the neck itself, and therefore the frets themselves aren't always perfectly spaced in relation to one another.

Obviously, not by a whole lot...but to some extent.

Consider this infographic as an example:



Imagine the bouncing weight as the headstock, and where the spring attaches up above as the guitar body. The spring shown is the guitar string...

This example is obviously a wild exaggeration, but the concept is the same. The guitar body, neck and headstock are not made of unobtanium material that possesses infinite stiffness. Rather, they are springy to some extent.

The bracing itself affects the effective stiffness of the body. It is totally possible a different bracing pattern can stiffen the system in the longitudinal direction, making scale length changes (with respect to dynamic string vibrations) decrease, which would...

...improve the intonation of the guitar while it's actually being played.

Also, I played a couple new V braced Taylors for the first time last night. Only for a minute or two. They are different. Dunno if better or not, but there is definitely something different going on there.

Also also, while the physics I'm talking about here could only be responsible for minor, minor intonation differences - I'm reminded how a lot of AGFers say they can totally hear the out-of-tuneness caused by only a cent or two...that fretting a string slightly too hard makes it go sharp perceptibly. I'm not that good, but there are lots of others that claim to be.
I think the best point was made by Trevor Gore on thid subject - the only way they can use a uniform pattern without individual voicing to reduce the effects of the body resonance is to stifle to some extent the responsiveness of the top.

If this is true then it seems to me that v bracing is working in the same way that cheaper ladder braced guitars and laminate guitars work.

If so then that is the very thing that Taylor cannot say because the whole point of guitar marketing for the whole of the history of the steel string guitar marketing is to tell us that improving the responsiveness of the top will improve tone.
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  #19  
Old 04-05-2018, 07:25 AM
printer2 printer2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HodgdonExtreme View Post
I've enjoyed your posts on the topic, printer, and also your build threads as well.

I make no claims of being an expert with resonances and vibrations; I've taken a few classes and understand the physics at a 600 level, but that's it.

I do realize the dynamic system that is a guitar is far, far more complicated than a simple harmonic oscillation; I was hoping to help people realize they can't (properly) consider a guitar as a static thing.

I've read SO many posts, referencing Taylor's intonation claim, that seem to refer to it as such. There's lots and lots of physics going on here!
Well thank you for checking out my build threads, half the time I wonder who stops in for a visit, or why. What did he screw up this time?

I have a little background in process control work where we tune the response of manufacturing processes. So when I started to learn about how a guitar works it did not seem foreign to me. Not that I know a heck of a lot.
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  #20  
Old 04-13-2018, 11:29 AM
Shuksan Shuksan is offline
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As of today, two months and counting.....
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  #21  
Old 04-14-2018, 08:58 AM
wooglins wooglins is offline
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The filming is discussed and Tony is interviewed on the Taylor factory podcast. The filming is discussed on the Taylor guitar right here. Episode 12.

https://www.taylorguitars.com/from-the-factory-podcast
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  #22  
Old 04-14-2018, 03:40 PM
Shuksan Shuksan is offline
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Originally Posted by wooglins View Post
The filming is discussed and Tony is interviewed on the Taylor factory podcast. The filming is discussed on the Taylor guitar right here. Episode 12.

https://www.taylorguitars.com/from-the-factory-podcast
Thanks for the link. If Tony said in the interview when he is going to post his follow up video that this thread is about, I missed it.

I have to comment on one part of the propagandacast. At about 39:30, Tony demonstrates how the v-class Taylor he has with him during the interview can produce harmonics other than the usual three we all know at the 5th, 7th, and 12th frets. He plays sliding along the low E string from the nut to the 7th fret using the standard harmonic playing technique and you can hear harmonics at several other positions including positions between frets. One of the Taylor guys then prattles on about you can't hear those on an x-braced guitar because you need v-class bracing to allow those harmonics to be heard. Bull pucky! I picked up one of my guitars and easily replicated the same harmonics, maybe more of them and more clearly, with my x-braced guitar. Just another example of Taylor marketing people making nonsensical claims.

The guitar Tony demos sounds quite good, but the hosts were full of more of the same marketing mumbo jumbo.
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  #23  
Old 04-14-2018, 03:48 PM
Shuksan Shuksan is offline
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One more thing about those other harmonics. For kicks I just tried the same thing on the low E string of my Les Paul. Guess what. All those other harmonics are easily audible on that guitar too even unplugged.
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  #24  
Old 05-13-2018, 03:53 PM
Shuksan Shuksan is offline
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The followup is here: https://acousticlife.tv/the-real-sto...aylor-v-class/
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  #25  
Old 05-14-2018, 08:25 AM
printer2 printer2 is offline
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I only listened to parts which seemed might have a physics oriented bent to how the bracing is different and heard nothing. Oh well.
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  #26  
Old 05-14-2018, 10:13 AM
Seagull S6 Seagull S6 is offline
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What a lot of people do is confuse compensation and intonation and assume that if the open string and the 12th harmonic are compensated to play in pitch, then every aspect of the guitar will be in pitch or have good intonation. Because of Equal Temperament tuning, this isn't even possible.

I think that Bob and Andy"s "in theory" explanation really missed the mark and a lot better tact would have been to just simply state that in their opinion V-Bracing is an enhancement to a guitars perceived sound because of the structural differences of V-Bracing and then just let the buying public decide.

The Bob/Any/Tony roadshow? Just marketing me thinks.
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  #27  
Old 05-14-2018, 12:50 PM
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Well he said he would get the goods on the guitar and basically I found much of the same which we already heard. I want that half hour of my life back.
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  #28  
Old 05-15-2018, 12:55 PM
Herb Hunter Herb Hunter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Picker2 View Post
...A guitar body is a passive transducer, therefore it cannot produce frequencies on its own, and consequently it can never improve intonation.

Referring to the frequency only and not the amplitude, are you saying that all guitar bodies radiate the frequencies that excite them with equal fidelity? Do all guitar bodies when excited by, say, a 98 Hz frequency radiate 98 Hz exactly and not some approximation to it (as an example, 97.9 or 98.1)?
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  #29  
Old 05-17-2018, 08:04 AM
Guitarsan Guitarsan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seagull S6 View Post
What a lot of people do is confuse compensation and intonation and assume that if the open string and the 12th harmonic are compensated to play in pitch, then every aspect of the guitar will be in pitch or have good intonation. Because of Equal Temperament tuning, this isn't even possible.

I think that Bob and Andy"s "in theory" explanation really missed the mark and a lot better tact would have been to just simply state that in their opinion V-Bracing is an enhancement to a guitars perceived sound because of the structural differences of V-Bracing and then just let the buying public decide.
I agree with your "better tact", but then there's all the folks who demand the science behind it, then demand he validate the science, etc. So what's Andy to do? I think he's done a pretty good job of accommodating everyone with the various things he's said and they've published.

This video (note it has a table of contents) https://acousticlife.tv/the-real-sto...aylor-v-class/ helps add a lot of background information to what's already been said.

Andy and Bob have put money where their mouth is - the proof they believe in this as an enhancement is they're now rolling it out as the only option for most of their product line.

As for whether or not a given person will like it? Like Andy says in so many words, hey, if you've got a guitar that you love, play on brother/sister. That makes him happy, regardless of what it is.

As for all the luddites? They're expected and ignored. Too little time for negative energy.
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Last edited by Guitarsan; 05-17-2018 at 06:20 PM.
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  #30  
Old 05-17-2018, 01:18 PM
Seagull S6 Seagull S6 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guitarsan View Post

As for whether or not a given person will like it? Like Andy says in so many words, hey, if you've got a guitar that you love, play on brother/sister. That makes him happy, regardless of what it is.
That's the bottom line really. You can throw all the science you like behind something and if the perceived result is not pleasing to your ears, game over.

It's like Bose speakers. The old 901's had something like 5% or 10% THD but sounded just incredible, especially driven with a tube amp. In fact, Amar Bose would say "We are not even going to publish specifications. You will just have to let your ears decide".
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