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  #16  
Old 04-15-2024, 01:06 PM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
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When I had my Apollo interfaces (silverplate then an X8p then an X16), I never used Console and recorded everything in my daw. My computer then was a 2017 iMac with 32gb ram. I never found a good reason to use Console and I was happier not having to deal with that extra layer of software while recording. Latency wasn't an issue for me and I'm not sure why it is for the OP. I suspect there may be ways to reduce latency that he wasn't employing.
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2023 Iris ND-200 maple/adi
2017 Circle Strings 00 bastogne walnut/sinker redwood
2015 Circle Strings Parlor shedua/western red cedar
2009 Bamburg JSB Signature Baritone macassar ebony/carpathian spruce
2004 Taylor XXX-RS indian rosewood/sitka spruce
1988 Martin D-16 mahogany/sitka spruce

along with some electrics, zouks, dulcimers, and banjos.

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  #17  
Old 04-15-2024, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
His complaint is about only being able to "use so many plugins at one time." Since he's referring to UAD plugins inside of UA Console while recording, that points to a complaint about limited dsp in his Apollo interface. His computer doesn't affect that. He's limited by having just two dsp chips in his interface.
Ah got it , thanks as I said I've no experience with UAD hardware
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  #18  
Old 04-15-2024, 09:21 PM
Bookstorecowboy Bookstorecowboy is offline
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I solved the problem by:
A) Updating the Apollo unit with the latest software
B) Restarting with UAD's very picky procedures (you have to do it, yes, but also, within 30 minutes, you must set permissions in your System Settings in various specific ways).
Now it works fine. The problem threw me because it was working fine just last week after the hardware reset. I thought that meant I was "up to date." I was wrong.
As to other things:
1. There is always latency when you run vocals or other into a computer and have to run things through the DAW for processing. I mean, this is just a fact about computer software. There are comments above that at least seem to me to imply otherwise, but that seems incorrect. "Latency occurs because your signal passes through different analog and digital components, and each takes a particular time to process your signal and therefore introduces a time delay. This delay adds up, resulting in a total delay between audio input (let's say a microphone input signal) and output (speakers)" (Lewitt website).
This is one reason people buy the Apollo, because you can run your mic or line directly into the unit and this reduces latency to almost zero (they say zero, but that is technically incorrect). See below.
2. I am afraid that I do not agree that usage is the same in Console and in the computer. That just is not my experience. I would say that if you are only using one or two plug-ins, and only using voice and guitar, you shouldn't run into problems. But that is not the case for me.
3. The Apollo has a "Unison" pre-amp you can use that runs on the DSP. The "Console" application is often used for managing audio inputs, routing, and applying real-time effects. Some users (including me, when it is working) find it beneficial for reducing latency because it processes audio at the hardware level before sending it to the DAW, potentially lowering the latency compared to processing entirely within the DAW.

Computer: Macbook Pro M2, lots of extra storage and RAM.

Last edited by Bookstorecowboy; 04-16-2024 at 12:09 AM.
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  #19  
Old 04-15-2024, 11:04 PM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bookstorecowboy View Post
This is one reason people buy the Apollo, because you can run your mic or line directly into the unit and this reduces latency to almost zero (they say zero, but that is technically incorrect).
There was a time when latency was a real problem because the demands of the software were more than most computers could handle without introducing latency. But that really hasn't been a problem for a while. And since the M-series Macs came out, it's a none issue for nearly anyone.

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Originally Posted by Bookstorecowboy View Post
2. I am afraid that I do not agree that usage is the same in Console and in the computer. That just is not my experience. I would say that if you are only using one or two plug-ins, and only using voice and guitar, you shouldn't run into problems. But that is not the case for me.
Then you don't understand how your interface works. The plugins your using are relying on dsp for their processing power. They're not using your computer's CPU. Any power limitation you run into while using plugins in Console is going to be due to your lack of dsp chips in your Apollo.

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Originally Posted by Bookstorecowboy View Post
3. The Apollo has a "Unison" pre-amp you can use that runs on the DSP. The "Console" application is often used for managing audio inputs, routing, and applying real-time effects. Some users (including me, when it is working) find it beneficial for reducing latency because it processes audio at the hardware level before sending it to the DAW, potentially lowering the latency compared to processing entirely within the DAW.
My last answer applies here as well. The UA plugin usage chart that I linked in a previous post shows how much available dsp a plugin will use when instantiated. It doesn't matter if you use it in Console or in your daw. The amount of dsp it uses remains unchanged.

The only difference between using a plugin as "unison" or as plugin in your daw is that some slight change to the sound happens because the interface makes some impedance adjustment.

Computer: Macbook Pro M2, lots of extra memory and RAM.[/QUOTE]
First, when you say "extra memory and RAM," you're being redundant. Memory IS ram.
Second, that computer has more than enough processing power to run a session without introducing a ton of latency. I know UA likes to make a big deal out of their "near zero latency." It's a great marketing blurb but as I said previously, the majority of users these days aren't going to have latency issues. You can record on these new Macs with the buffer set so low that you're not going to detect latency.
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2023 Iris ND-200 maple/adi
2017 Circle Strings 00 bastogne walnut/sinker redwood
2015 Circle Strings Parlor shedua/western red cedar
2009 Bamburg JSB Signature Baritone macassar ebony/carpathian spruce
2004 Taylor XXX-RS indian rosewood/sitka spruce
1988 Martin D-16 mahogany/sitka spruce

along with some electrics, zouks, dulcimers, and banjos.

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  #20  
Old 04-16-2024, 12:06 AM
Bookstorecowboy Bookstorecowboy is offline
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I had a Scarlett DAI that had a lot of latency. That was maybe six years ago. Have things changed since then?
Memory/RAM -- I meant to say storage, sorry.

"Then you don't understand how your interface works. The plugins your using are relying on dsp for their processing power. They're not using your computer's CPU. Any power limitation you run into while using plugins in Console is going to be due to your lack of dsp chips in your Apollo."

That I don't understand it is undoubtedly true.

It seems that lots of people report latency problems online.
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  #21  
Old 04-16-2024, 07:26 AM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bookstorecowboy View Post
I had a Scarlett DAI that had a lot of latency. That was maybe six years ago. Have things changed since then?
Memory/RAM -- I meant to say storage, sorry.

"Then you don't understand how your interface works. The plugins your using are relying on dsp for their processing power. They're not using your computer's CPU. Any power limitation you run into while using plugins in Console is going to be due to your lack of dsp chips in your Apollo."

That I don't understand it is undoubtedly true.

It seems that lots of people report latency problems online.
You can drop Console and record through your daw without latency problems. Create a session with a 48 sample rate, 24 bit depth, and set your buffer to 128 or 64 (try 128 first, go to 64 if you hear latency but I suspect 128 will be low enough). If your daw has something like low latency monitoring, turn that on.

The thing that has changed the most in six years is how powerful computers have become. Your Macbook Pro M2 with extra ram is a beast and will outshine greatly whatever computer you were using before.
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Jim
2023 Iris ND-200 maple/adi
2017 Circle Strings 00 bastogne walnut/sinker redwood
2015 Circle Strings Parlor shedua/western red cedar
2009 Bamburg JSB Signature Baritone macassar ebony/carpathian spruce
2004 Taylor XXX-RS indian rosewood/sitka spruce
1988 Martin D-16 mahogany/sitka spruce

along with some electrics, zouks, dulcimers, and banjos.

YouTube
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  #22  
Old 04-16-2024, 09:22 AM
Joseph Hanna Joseph Hanna is offline
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[/QUOTE]First, when you say "extra memory and RAM," you're being redundant. Memory IS ram.
Second, that computer has more than enough processing power to run a session without introducing a ton of latency. I know UA likes to make a big deal out of their "near-zero latency." It's a great marketing blurb but as I said previously, the majority of users these days aren't going to have latency issues. You can record on these new Macs with the buffer set so low that you're not going to detect latency.[/QUOTE]


I agree with the above. As a base, I have a MacStudio M1 with "lots of extra memory and RAM". Without a deep dive setup config, and using only the stock core buffer setting, I'm getting a 6ms round trip out of Logic an 8mm round trip out of Pro Tools, and a surprisingly 5mm round trip out of Studio One. That without a deep dive efficiency check of the Daw's, although I suspect Pro Tools is as lean as it's going to get.

Ostensibly, and gathering a bit of knowledge about your setup, your Mac, properly set up, is blazingly fast. Faster than mine and mine is uncannily fast. I don't know your interface as it's something I've actually never been hands-on but I know UA is certainly well-regarded in creating great interfaces. Your stock Mac I'm guessing will comfortably run buffer sizes down to 64 consistently. Mine runs at 64 even during a light mix session (let alone recording) and remains rock solid. A 6,7 or 8ms latency round trip is virtually undetectable by most humans, I'm willing to stand by the zero latency mantra even without the help of the chipset you have on the UA interface.

It just somehow seems there are some minor misunderstandings here and I suspect that might be the source of some of the problems. As it stands that system should be in the "blow the doors off" category and shouldn't have anything of real impedance including latency.
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  #23  
Old 04-16-2024, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bookstorecowboy View Post
I solved the problem by:
A) Updating the Apollo unit with the latest software
B) Restarting with UAD's very picky procedures (you have to do it, yes, but also, within 30 minutes, you must set permissions in your System Settings in various specific ways).
Now it works fine. The problem threw me because it was working fine just last week after the hardware reset. I thought that meant I was "up to date." I was wrong.
As to other things:
1. There is always latency when you run vocals or other into a computer and have to run things through the DAW for processing. I mean, this is just a fact about computer software. There are comments above that at least seem to me to imply otherwise, but that seems incorrect. "Latency occurs because your signal passes through different analog and digital components, and each takes a particular time to process your signal and therefore introduces a time delay. This delay adds up, resulting in a total delay between audio input (let's say a microphone input signal) and output (speakers)" (Lewitt website).
This is one reason people buy the Apollo, because you can run your mic or line directly into the unit and this reduces latency to almost zero (they say zero, but that is technically incorrect). See below.
2. I am afraid that I do not agree that usage is the same in Console and in the computer. That just is not my experience. I would say that if you are only using one or two plug-ins, and only using voice and guitar, you shouldn't run into problems. But that is not the case for me.
3. The Apollo has a "Unison" pre-amp you can use that runs on the DSP. The "Console" application is often used for managing audio inputs, routing, and applying real-time effects. Some users (including me, when it is working) find it beneficial for reducing latency because it processes audio at the hardware level before sending it to the DAW, potentially lowering the latency compared to processing entirely within the DAW.

Computer: Macbook Pro M2, lots of extra storage and RAM.
Hey that is great the you got it working

Again I do not use UAD however I do us a DSP hardware/DAW software system, so I thought I might clarify a few things just for general info...As related to DAW and DSP

First we need to understand there is "native processing" that takes place on the host the computer CPU --and then there is DSP hardware chip processing that takes place on the DSP chip itself and is then sent to the computer.

#1 Yes there is always going to be some amount of inherent system round trip latency (or RTL) in digital that uses converters and GUI processing etc.
System RTL latency includes the combined effect or both the interface converter processing, and the computer with the DAW processing . However that fact alone is not all that relevant. And I believe when folks are saying zero latency they mean "detectable" latency .. And yes the latency in native processing was a major factor in the inclusion of direct bypass circuits (input monitoring) in many interfaces to bypass the converters and send the RAW analog signal direct to the interface outputs to get near zero latency.. but that precludes any plugin processing

The relevant question is how many milli-seconds is inherent in the system in the RAW signal processing (no plugins) > obviously plugins add processing and ultimately more latency But all plugins different so no point in injecting that variable (at this point)

It should be noted that there is virtually zero latency in the signal passing through analog circuits, so again not all that relevant.

According to the scientists that study such things. Humans cannot accurately and consistently detect any latency below 12 ms Some humans can detect some stated feel of "thickening" of sound between 12 and 15 ms although not as perceptible latency per.se. Then most humans can detect a noticeable latency effect (even if just chorus-ie or flanging effect) at 20- 30ms. and then somewhere beyond 30 -40 ms begin to detect a blatant delay and then echo-ish effect .


#2 This statement is not real clear in what you mean exactly .
First (all things being equal) there should be virtually no difference "between" using the Console software which runs on the CPU of the host computer ( and is basically a GUI of a mixer window ) and using the DAW software GUI for the mixer window which also runs on the host computer

Second (again all things being equal with correct routing etc) the amount of plugins you run should also make no difference as to simply just the difference between Console or DAW, because as Jim noted the processing is taking place on the UAD DSP chips, not in the console (which again is running on the host computer not the DSP chips) Like others I suspect some other variable taking place.

#3 First : Your are mistaken the "Unison preamps" do not "run on the DSP" chips , they are analog preamps for boosting the analog mic signal before going to the converters ..

Second: yes correct the Console is a software mixer for routing and inserts and levels etc. ---as is the mixer in the DAW.

Third : yes correct the reason for using any DSP hardware in recording is to achieve near zero latency even when using (some) plugins. BUT and it is a big but ,,, there is a finite limit to the amount of processing the specific DSP chips can handle
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Enjoy the Journey.... Kev...

KevWind at Soundcloud

KevWind at YouYube
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD

System :
Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1

Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2024.3 Sonoma 14.4

Last edited by KevWind; 04-16-2024 at 10:15 AM.
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  #24  
Old 04-16-2024, 01:41 PM
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Doug Young Doug Young is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
#3 First : Your are mistaken the "Unison preamps" do not "run on the DSP" chips , they are analog preamps for boosting the analog mic signal before going to the converters ..
Kev, the UAD systems have Unison slots that support specific limited plugins. I think that's what the OP is referring to. I've not found these to be useful for that I do, so I'm not an expert on these, but Unison plugins seem to do a sort of handshake with the hardware, effecting things like the input impedance of the physical preamps, but I suspect also adding DSP emulation to the signal path. So they're sort of special, privileged plugins that both do "plugin" sort of things, but also have a special protocol for manipulating the preamp section. So I don't think the path is entirely analog in this case. Using the Unison preamps doesn't refer just to UA's analog path, but the analog/DSP/plugin hybrid, best as I can tell.


Other than these special Unison plugins, which I can see being useful if you think you just have to have a true Neve preamp on the front end, personally, I avoid using the console. For one thing, I don't want to "print" effects. I want to save that step for mix time, when I can make decisions while listening critically to the final project, in context with a mix, etc, and not be stuck with effects I put on while tracking.

Everyone's workflow and needs are different, but my advice would be to add as little effects as possible during tracking so you have the most flexibility when mixing. Seems to be a trend in the other direction, tho, I think this is the 3rd post in the last few weeks about wanting to load up the console with plugins...
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  #25  
Old 04-16-2024, 01:56 PM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
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Everyone's workflow and needs are different, but my advice would be to add as little effects as possible during tracking so you have the most flexibility when mixing. Seems to be a trend in the other direction, tho, I think this is the 3rd post in the last few weeks about wanting to load up the console with plugins...
That's always been my philosophy as well... the fewer decisions I make during tracking, the fewer regrets I have when mixing.

When they came out, I was excited about the Unison pres ...until I bought an X8p and heard them. They didn't WOW me and none of them sounded anywhere near as good as my outboard pres. I have five really excellent options in my rack.
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2023 Iris ND-200 maple/adi
2017 Circle Strings 00 bastogne walnut/sinker redwood
2015 Circle Strings Parlor shedua/western red cedar
2009 Bamburg JSB Signature Baritone macassar ebony/carpathian spruce
2004 Taylor XXX-RS indian rosewood/sitka spruce
1988 Martin D-16 mahogany/sitka spruce

along with some electrics, zouks, dulcimers, and banjos.

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  #26  
Old 04-16-2024, 02:07 PM
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Did you figure it out, OP? Happy to help troubleshoot if not
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  #27  
Old 04-16-2024, 02:59 PM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
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Did you figure it out, OP? Happy to help troubleshoot if not
He got it sorted. Post #18
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2023 Iris ND-200 maple/adi
2017 Circle Strings 00 bastogne walnut/sinker redwood
2015 Circle Strings Parlor shedua/western red cedar
2009 Bamburg JSB Signature Baritone macassar ebony/carpathian spruce
2004 Taylor XXX-RS indian rosewood/sitka spruce
1988 Martin D-16 mahogany/sitka spruce

along with some electrics, zouks, dulcimers, and banjos.

YouTube
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  #28  
Old 04-16-2024, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
Kev, the UAD systems have Unison slots that support specific limited plugins. I think that's what the OP is referring to. I've not found these to be useful for that I do, so I'm not an expert on these, but Unison plugins seem to do a sort of handshake with the hardware, effecting things like the input impedance of the physical preamps, but I suspect also adding DSP emulation to the signal path. So they're sort of special, privileged plugins that both do "plugin" sort of things, but also have a special protocol for manipulating the preamp section. So I don't think the path is entirely analog in this case. Using the Unison preamps doesn't refer just to UA's analog path, but the analog/DSP/plugin hybrid, best as I can tell.

Ah I see ,, again I've no experience with UAD hardware or its specific hardware/software hybrid workflow

But I do get get having digital based impedance selection options (I have that on 4 of the mic pres and the two instrument inputs my Avid Carbon interface) And then also I have the nifty basic virtual Carbon Mic pre control section at the top of each audio channel strip in the mixer window inside the PT DAW .
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KevWind at Soundcloud

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https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD

System :
Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1

Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2024.3 Sonoma 14.4

Last edited by KevWind; 04-17-2024 at 06:17 AM.
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  #29  
Old 04-16-2024, 11:51 PM
ms3 ms3 is offline
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He got it sorted. Post #18

Sorry, I still don't have the pages thing down with these threads 😳
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  #30  
Old 04-17-2024, 03:24 PM
Rick Shepherd Rick Shepherd is offline
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I use Apollo Twin X Duo with Logic Pro X as well. I am glad to hear you got it sorted out. It was very confusing to me at first, because I use outboard preamps and converters with the Apollo. My converters connect to the Apollo via ADAT. Then to add more confusion, I had to figure out how to route my outboard effects through it using the line outs and pre line inputs 1&2. Have fun with iit!

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