Seeking opinions re scale and fret number

[Merlemantel]

I am contemplating a custom build. I am 67, female, short. Not much arthritis in my hands, but my neck can get wonky when I exert pressure to fret clean notes on the first and second frets. I am mostly a singer, have always played the guitar to accompany myself, but I am trying to learn finger style. I have a 14 fret, 25.5, 1.75 steel string (Heinonen) that has an absolutely gorgeous sound. I have a 25.5, 14 fret, 48 mm Lowden jazz guitar that I recently received, also a beautiful sound. Since receiving the Lowden, I have hardly picked up the Heinonen, which is a shame. That guitar SHOULD be played. I have tried low tension strings on the Heinonen, but it loses its extraordinary beauty with low tension strings, in my opinion. The action is exactly where it should be on that guitar. The Lowden is so much easier to play and it is allowing me to progress faster. So here's the deal, I am thinking about commissioning a steel string that will be more comfortable to play. So, do I go short scale - say 25 - 14 fret, for the lower tension? Do I go std scale, 12 fret, (not the Martin model where the reach stays pretty much equivalent to 14 fret, but more the Collings model, with a shorter reach to the first frets.)? Do I do both? (That seems like it could get a bit jangly and loosey-goosey to me) I like a resonant sound, more in the Celtic tradition, but not as overtone heavy as a Lowden steel string. I like a modern sound. I rarely play with a pick. I have a light touch. I do sometimes use dropped tunings, and would like to learn more of that rep. Your opinions, insights, will be greatly appreciated. This is a big move at 67, and I want to get it right. Thanks much. Leesa

[Berf]

Originally Posted by Merlemantel

I am contemplating a custom build. I am 67, female, short. Not much arthritis in my hands, but my neck can get wonky when I exert pressure to fret clean notes on the first and second frets. I am mostly a singer, have always played the guitar to accompany myself, but I am trying to learn finger style. I have a 14 fret, 25.5, 1.75 steel string (Heinonen) that has an absolutely gorgeous sound. I have a 25.5, 14 fret, 48 mm Lowden jazz guitar that I recently received, also a beautiful sound. Since receiving the Lowden, I have hardly picked up the Heinonen, which is a shame. That guitar SHOULD be played. I have tried low tension strings on the Heinonen, but it loses its extraordinary beauty with low tension strings, in my opinion. The action is exactly where it should be on that guitar. The Lowden is so much easier to play and it is allowing me to progress faster. So here's the deal, I am thinking about commissioning a steel string that will be more comfortable to play. So, do I go short scale - say 25 - 14 fret, for the lower tension? Do I go std scale, 12 fret, (not the Martin model where the reach stays pretty much equivalent to 14 fret, but more the Collings model, with a shorter reach to the first frets.)? Do I do both? (That seems like it could get a bit jangly and loosey-goosey to me) I like a resonant sound, more in the Celtic tradition, but not as overtone heavy as a Lowden steel string. I like a modern sound. I rarely play with a pick. I have a light touch. I do sometimes use dropped tunings, and would like to learn more of that rep. Your opinions, insights, will be greatly appreciated. This is a big move at 67, and I want to get it right. Thanks much. Leesa

Hi Leesa,

I've had hand/wrist tendinitis issues over the years and have owned a couple of wonderful guitars with very short (24.25 inch) scales, 12 fret neck joins and set up for light gauge strings. These were built by Bruce Sexauer and Marc Beneteau who both kindly went out of their normal practices to accommodate my needs. These guitars very easy to play and sounded wonderful (to my ears). Because of the shorter scale, both builders suggested the 12 fret design to get the best possible tone. Compared to the 14 fret join, the 12 fret join shifts the entire neck back with respect to the guitar body which means that your fretting hand is closer to your body when you play... this may be more ergonomic and possibly help your neck issues??

I've never played a Lowden but is the jazz model a nylon string guitar? If so, it may be tricky to find a steel string to play as easily as that.

Best of luck with finding a solution, Berf

[Bruce Sexauer]

When I build shorter scale, as I did for Berf, I build for the decreased tension. It is no surprise that your experience with lighter strings on a guitar that was not made for them was a disappointment. I have also made a 14" wide 23.5" scale arch top for a petite female player in Connecticut that was a serious contender for most successful acoustic arch top ever to come out of my shop. It can be done.

[s2y]

Are these guitars set up to play as easy as possible for YOU? It's not a rare occurrence to hear how high your action should be, but there's a 99% chance it's THEIR preference and higher usually means a heavy handed technique.

Second, have you had a teacher evaluate your technique? My short build and small hands basically forced me to use classical technique. I'm very lucky that I decided to take a classical guitar course in college.

[IndianHillMike]

Originally Posted by Merlemantel

So, do I go short scale - say 25 - 14 fret, for the lower tension? Do I go std scale, 12 fret, (not the Martin model where the reach stays pretty much equivalent to 14 fret, but more the Collings model, with a shorter reach to the first frets.)? Do I do both? (That seems like it could get a bit jangly and loosey-goosey to me)

Just to clear something up, the scale length will affect the tension but what fret the neck joins the body will not (and apologies if I'm interpreting what you wrote incorrectly!). In other words, a 12-fret short scale will have the same tension as a 14-fret short scale. When you're going with a short scale, the benefit of a 12-fret body joint is that it pushes the bridge away from the sound hole and deeper into the working area of the guitar. So, if comfort and is a primary concern, I'd for sure recommend a short scale 12-fret guitar (and probably a smaller body as well).

[dcn]

Hi Leesa,

I would try out as many different models as you can to better establish what you prefer ergonomically - guitar stores and guitar-playing friends being two "sources" who could provide instruments for comparison. The Heinonen / Lowden A/B is useful, but should be supplemented. These things can be so difficult to decide and discern in theory since there are other factors in play (neck profile, body shape, etc.).

Good luck with your search!

Diogo

[Merlemantel]

Originally Posted by dcn

Hi Leesa,

I would try out as many different models as you can to better establish what you prefer ergonomically - guitar stores and guitar-playing friends being two "sources" who could provide instruments for comparison. The Heinonen / Lowden A/B is useful, but should be supplemented. These things can be so difficult to decide and discern in theory since there are other factors in play (neck profile, body shape, etc.).

Good luck with your search!

Diogo

Thank you for your response. I had a Collings Triple O 12 fret, and as you may know, the Collings method is to move the bridge toward the center of the lower bout to achieve the 12 fret to the body arrangement. It was 25.5 scale, so no less tension. It was a smaller body. It was effortless to play, but it did not have the acoustic properties I want. It was sitka/EIR, lots of ring in the trebles, beautiful sound, but the midrange and bass lacked power plucked with bare fingers. I think that had a lot to do with the small body. 4 inch depth. I want more richness and volume in the bass than that guitar had, which is why I went to the Heinonen SJ - I achieved the acoustic solution, but lost the ergonomic comfort. Ergonomically, it was super easy for me to play the Collings, but I really don't want to go back to a small body guitar. I also have a classical, 51 mm, 650, standard classical dimensions, I don't enjoy playing it because of the wider nut, but the reduced tension of the nylon strings certainly makes it easier to play. So... I do have some experience with various bodies.

[Merlemantel]

Originally Posted by IndianHillMike

Just to clear something up, the scale length will affect the tension but what fret the neck joins the body will not (and apologies if I'm interpreting what you wrote incorrectly!). In other words, a 12-fret short scale will have the same tension as a 14-fret short scale. When you're going with a short scale, the benefit of a 12-fret body joint is that it pushes the bridge away from the sound hole and deeper into the working area of the guitar. So, if comfort and is a primary concern, I'd for sure recommend a short scale 12-fret guitar (and probably a smaller body as well).

Thank you for your response. Yes, I am aware of this. I had a Collings Triple O 12 fret, 25.5, and the tension on that guitar was standard, of course, because of the long scale. I did find it effortless to play, but the bass and mid-range were not powerful enough when plucked with bare skin. I want a richer, more robust bass and mid-range with lots of sustain. The body was 4 inch depth on that guitar, and there is only so much power you can get out of a small body. That guitar was exceptional in so many ways, but really needed to be played with a pick, which I don't prefer. So, while that smaller body was very comfortable, I don't really want that small body sound. That is why I wonder if a short scale instrument might achieve some of the comfort I desire, and with the reduced tension bring more richness to the sound. I think a bevel will help make the body itself more comfortable. I'm not really worried about fret buzz with the reduced tension, as I don't ever really drive the top very hard. - Any further thoughts you might have, I would really appreciate hearing. Thank you.

[Deliberate1]

M, for me comfort in a guitar is both king and queen. And that was my North star when I commissioned my first guitar with Max Spohn, which has been in my hands for not quite three weeks. I was fortunate, because I had never even held a guitar that was configured like the one Max built for me. Ultimately, his guitar is the most comfortable I have ever held or played. And that is why its gets both held and played, by fingers that are the same vintage as yours, with but four years of guitar experience.

Max made me an OM-C, a body size that is, by definition smaller than a dread or jumbo. And that means less mass in the lap and arms.

The scale length is 24.75" on a 12 fret. Max, to my knowledge limits his builds to 24.75" or 25", so he has a great deal of experience with this configuration. It feels very different than my other guitars that are in the 25.5" range. Everything is easily within reach with the shorter scale.

I selected a Florentine cutaway which gives me access above the 12th. I do not spend a lot of time in the nose bleed section of the fretboard - but can, if I choose to.

You mentioned some thumb stiffness, which I am also "blessed" with. For comfort's sake, Max rounded the fretboard edge, and that has helped.

The Manzer Wedge may have been the best option of all. Forgive me if you already know all about it. If not, it is worth exploring. Basically, it creates a taper in the depth of the guitar body, with a slimmer profile on the 6th string side. The practical effect, for me, is to provide a natural "tilt" back of the guitar, which provides a clear view of the fretboard without having to crane the neck, or tilt the entire guitar back into my body, which I do with my other guitars. It has been brilliant.

I asked Max to set the action as low as practical. And he did, at 1.75/2.25mm. Now, with this low tolerance, Max spec'd the guitar with Elixir 13-53 strings, which are stiffer than the 12-53 D'Addario XS's I typically use. I did a deep dive, and discovered that the tensions of Elixir strings is usually greater than it is for the same XS string. So I am experimenting with different options. But that is all in the fine-tuning.

Sonically, my maple guitar ticks all the boxes you mention. It has a decidedly modern voice with a focused sound, devoid of most overtone. On the other end of the spectrum is my Froggy Bottom, which throws a rainbow of overtones at you. The Spohn, as I have described it, sounds like champagne. But it is not just the b/s tone woods that matter, as I have learned. For Max, "80%" of the voice emanates from the top. He selects the appropriate soundboard and carves the braces to achieve the voice the client is looking for.

M, the journey to create an instrument to your specifications is unlike any other. It was a great one for me. As I hope it will be for you. If you are interested, here is my NGD tomb: https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=678716. Best of luck, and report back.

David

[lfarhadi]

Owning both 12 and 14 fretters that I cherish, I would recommend that before you commission, visit a high end shop and play a bunch of 12 and 14 fretters before you decide which to commission (or buy on the spot).

My H12 is warmer, more resonant in the midrange and low end, and more overall overtones than my Jang, which has more focus and clarity across the entire register, and is more powerful in the trebles.

The H12 is more comfortable to play. They both do very well in drop tunings. They are equally touch sensitive. I play up the neck often so the 14 fretter obviously has the edge there.

After playing the Jang, some might feel the H12 is muddy by comparison. After playing the H12, some might feel the Jang isn't warm enough or feel as intimate. This is all with bare fingers. I'd describe both instruments differently played with a pick.

You get the point.

[Merlemantel]

Originally Posted by s2y

Are these guitars set up to play as easy as possible for YOU? It's not a rare occurrence to hear how high your action should be, but there's a 99% chance it's THEIR preference and higher usually means a heavy handed technique.

Second, have you had a teacher evaluate your technique? My short build and small hands basically forced me to use classical technique. I'm very lucky that I decided to take a classical guitar course in college.

Good question. No, the Heinonen came with Drew's std setup. I should have my local luthier take a look at it. Excellent point.

[s2y]

Originally Posted by Merlemantel

Good question. No, the Heinonen came with Drew's std setup. I should have my local luthier take a look at it. Excellent point.

I like to run my guitars much lower than what I "should", especially compared to what the Martin dread players say.

Still, a good teacher might be able to look at your technique and offer things that might make life easier on your hands. As previously mentioned, I'm a big fan of classical technique from an ergonomic POV. I'm usually very rebellious, so standing behind something traditional might show the true value.

[Merlemantel]

Originally Posted by Deliberate1

M, for me comfort in a guitar is both king and queen. And that was my North star when I commissioned my first guitar with Max Spohn, which has been in my hands for not quite three weeks. I was fortunate, because I had never even held a guitar that was configured like the one Max built for me. Ultimately, his guitar is the most comfortable I have ever held or played. And that is why its gets both held and played, by fingers that are the same vintage as yours, with but four years of guitar experience.

Max made me an OM-C, a body size that is, by definition smaller than a dread or jumbo. And that means less mass in the lap and arms.

The scale length is 24.75" on a 12 fret. Max, to my knowledge limits his builds to 24.75" or 25", so he has a great deal of experience with this configuration. It feels very different than my other guitars that are in the 25.5" range. Everything is easily within reach with the shorter scale.

I selected a Florentine cutaway which gives me access above the 12th. I do not spend a lot of time in the nose bleed section of the fretboard - but can, if I choose to.

You mentioned some thumb stiffness, which I am also "blessed" with. For comfort's sake, Max rounded the fretboard edge, and that has helped.

The Manzer Wedge may have been the best option of all. Forgive me if you already know all about it. If not, it is worth exploring. Basically, it creates a taper in the depth of the guitar body, with a slimmer profile on the 6th string side. The practical effect, for me, is to provide a natural "tilt" back of the guitar, which provides a clear view of the fretboard without having to crane the neck, or tilt the entire guitar back into my body, which I do with my other guitars. It has been brilliant.

I asked Max to set the action as low as practical. And he did, at 1.75/2.25mm. Now, with this low tolerance, Max spec'd the guitar with Elixir 13-53 strings, which are stiffer than the 12-53 D'Addario XS's I typically use. I did a deep dive, and discovered that the tensions of Elixir strings is usually greater than it is for the same XS string. So I am experimenting with different options. But that is all in the fine-tuning.

Sonically, my maple guitar ticks all the boxes you mention. It has a decidedly modern voice with a focused sound, devoid of most overtone. On the other end of the spectrum is my Froggy Bottom, which throws a rainbow of overtones at you. The Spohn, as I have described it, sounds like champagne. But it is not just the b/s tone woods that matter, as I have learned. For Max, "80%" of the voice emanates from the top. He selects the appropriate soundboard and carves the braces to achieve the voice the client is looking for.

M, the journey to create an instrument to your specifications is unlike any other. It was a great one for me. As I hope it will be for you. If you are interested, here is my NGD tomb: https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=678716. Best of luck, and report back.

David

I remember this gorgeous build, and also your beautiful, captivating writing.

[Merlemantel]

So true. I agree re classical technique. I think the same thing is true for the voice. Being classically trained allows you to do so much more with your voice without hurting the instrument, just as for guitar. You don't have to sound like an opera singer to use classical vocal technique. I worked on right hand technique this morning for a couple hours. It is all about relaxing the right hand for me, instead of letting tension build up like muscular white noise. Makes a huge difference in the musical line.

[colins]

Hi Leesa,

I also play with a light touch, because of decades of playing electric guitar with low action and skinny strings, and more recently due to shoulder and hand issues. I am fortunate to have several guitars that were custom bult for me, all by builders that offer what I would call a modern sound. I attended a couple of guitar shows and visited a number of high-end shops to define my list of builders for that particular focus on the tone I like and the ability of the guitar to deliver the full tone with a light touch. I also found guitars that sounded magnificent if I was willing to play them hard, but that was not what I wanted.

For the actual builds, I discussed my preferences with the luthiers and I believe that the tops were selected and voiced to help get the most out of the guitar with my playing style.

They are all 25.6 inch string length, with the exception of my 00 which is 25 inch and I do notice the reduced tension on that guitar. I use low tension strings on a couple of the guitars with 25.6 inch necks but the same strings felt loose on the guitar with the 25 inch neck.

The 00 was built with a deeper body and it has more than enough bass and mids for my ears (then again, I’ve never been a dread guy).

My 2 cents is to play guitars by a range of luthiers. It’s a big distance to travel, but a trip to the La Conner guitar festival next May would give you the chance to meet a lot of luthiers and try their guitars. Plus, it’s a beautiful region to visit 😊. If you get there via Seattle you could also visit Dusty Strings, a great shop in town with a large collection of acoustics (and some fine harps too).

Best of luck with your search,
Colin