The 3rd voicing...

[Doug Young]

Guitar notation is rarely "accurate" as far as voices. To be technically correct, many pieces would need to be 6 voices, with the correct duration of timing for each string. The result would be unreadable.... So we compromise, and the norm is to just use 2 voices. And some just use 1 voice, You can add "let ring" in places as a crude way to add additional info. Scopes tried to add new ways to show duration of middle voices on his Hedges tabs. It was useful to study, but hard to sight read.

Usually when I've been tempted to use a 3rd voice, I refrain in the end, it's just too hard to read. It's frustrating, especially when it means not showing the full duration of the top voice, which is usually the melody, but notation is all about conveying info, so in the end, readability usually rules, at least for me.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Guitar notation is rarely "accurate" as far as voices. To be technically correct, many pieces would need to be 6 voices, with the correct duration of timing for each string. The result would be unreadable.... So we compromise, and the norm is to just use 2 voices. And some just use 1 voice, You can add "let ring" in places as a crude way to add additional info. Scopes tried to add new ways to show duration of middle voices on his Hedges tabs. It was useful to study, but hard to sight read.

Usually when I've been tempted to use a 3rd voice, I refrain in the end, it's just too hard to read. It's frustrating, especially when it means not showing the full duration of the top voice, which is usually the melody, but notation is all about conveying info, so in the end, readability usually rules, at least for me.

Correct in potential and even if not specifically written down in some sort of notation as polyphonic at a certain time it may be.
As in my C chord arpeggio (typically a strum) example who would damp each string as the next high string was played to give
each note is correct notated duration? Sometimes there are musical terms in a notation referencing things where the notes written
don't cover the whole situation.

[Gitfiddlemann]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

In my tab the note values are correct if you are limited to a single voice as I did. If you followed the thread from the beginning you would know I was responding to Barry saying
he needed to use three voices to get the timing right and I showed even one voice would do. Both standard notation and tab together can contribute to learning a new piece correctly
and faster.

Probably for my first few decades learning guitar pieces (classical mostly) I just used guitar scores in standard notation. Not a problem though I do think
a good tab along with the score sometimes useful.

Finger notation can be used in tab as well as standard (usually the a-b-i type way) though usually pretty self evident what to do without it.
In the tab and standard notation for things I compose arrange the timing incidations can in some pieces be the most time consuming part of it.
I am usually working up some new pieces and noting down progress as i go along is a better bet than just my memory.
One example is https://www.dcoombsguitar.com/Guitar...NightBlues.pdf

Again regarding timing indications in guitar music (especially compared to something like a flute) the note duration values given many notes in tab
or standard notation almost has to be incorrect (visual clutter otherwise) - say a C chord arpeggio for example.

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Guitar notation is rarely "accurate" as far as voices. To be technically correct, many pieces would need to be 6 voices, with the correct duration of timing for each string. The result would be unreadable.... So we compromise, and the norm is to just use 2 voices. And some just use 1 voice, You can add "let ring" in places as a crude way to add additional info. Scopes tried to add new ways to show duration of middle voices on his Hedges tabs. It was useful to study, but hard to sight read.

Usually when I've been tempted to use a 3rd voice, I refrain in the end, it's just too hard to read. It's frustrating, especially when it means not showing the full duration of the top voice, which is usually the melody, but notation is all about conveying info, so in the end, readability usually rules, at least for me.

Well, that's an interesting perspective, coming from you both. Actually, what had caught my eye in Barry's thread (which I had read from the beginning) was that he had zeroed in on the topic of separate voices, which is indeed a key element of Andrew York's compositional style. I know that, because I've watched and studied multiple videos of his explanations on the compositional ideas behind many of his pieces. And you can see the evidence in the way he presents multiple (2 or 3) voices in his notation. It's what he gets you to focus on in his music as one of its key elements.
It's also one of the reasons he shuns using TAB for his music, even though he admits he could probably sell more if he did. Not because he's a notation snob, which he absolutely isn't, but because he feels that notation, while still not perfect, presents the most complete musical picture in the littlest amount of space. He even experimented with his own version of notation, i.e. using two staffs to split out the top voices from the bass line. He couldn't make any headway with it so he kinda abandoned the idea, or shelved it, at least for commercial purposes. Some of the music I have from him does show voices purposely split out like that. He likes it, and for instructional purposes it works well, but I find it personally more challenging visually to sight read. Then again, he's Andrew York. Not your average human mind.
But I don't want to argue with the both of you. I just found it startling, since the thread was about York's music, that an argument was being made to combine separate voices into one separate line, when from a compositional standpoint, those were meant to be played and understood as separate. And if you learn them that way, it becomes easier to play them too. It all ties in musically.

In summary, I think Barry was on the right track. At least as far as Andrew York's music was concerned.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Gitfiddlemann

I just found it startling, since the thread was about York's music, that an argument was being made to combine separate voices into one separate line, when from a compositional standpoint, those were meant to be played and understood as separate. And if you learn them that way, it becomes easier to play them too. It all ties in musically.

As I already pointed out the reason for me tabbing it that way in this particular piece (at least the part I heard of it) is that it can be represented mostly in one voice (not counting a few tied notes ) and
the third voice comments made by the OP of the thread. I compose using treble and bass note choices (much more flexibility in note duration indication for one thing). An example of a tab of mine I posted
a link to above in post 15. I think we all get it about this subject. No one is a neophyte here.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Gitfiddlemann

But I don't want to argue with the both of you. I just found it startling, since the thread was about York's music, that an argument was being made to combine separate voices into one separate line, when from a compositional standpoint, those were meant to be played and understood as separate. And if you learn them that way, it becomes easier to play them too. It all ties in musically.

In summary, I think Barry was on the right track. At least as far as Andrew York's music was concerned.

I was actually just saying that many well-written most guitar transcriptions represent the music as 2 voices (1 bugs me :-). Limiting the voices is not "correct", but often a good compromise, and is pretty common. By the way, this has little to do with tab, where there's no timing indicated, usually, anyway. It's the standard notation that gets confusing when you try to add more voices to the one staff. I know many classical players do, and I'm sure Andrew is trying to be accurate, but there's only so much you can do. To be totally accurate with many fingerstyle/classical pieces, you'd need 6 voices. Nearly impossible to read, and most notation tools don't support that many. So we compromise, usually with 2, for readability, and assume the player will interpret appropriately. If someone feels strongly about the need for more voices, to represent their music, then by all means, they should notate it that way - creating notation is an exercise in communication - what detail do I need to provide to be clear, and what do I leave out in order to be clear?

[rick-slo]

Sort of yes and no on a guitar having six voices since it has six strings (usually). In a composition a voice is an independent musical line, not really tied to a particular string. Six voice interesting ones could be possible in a series of block chords like you sometimes get in jazz pieces or more typical chord strumming accompanying a singer. However when in doubt you watch and listen and probably will be alright. Pretty easy to do in this internet age.

[dn402]

I read this discussion among you regular posters with interest, as I do a fair amount of tabbing in MuseScore (part of how I learn and practice fingerstyle pieces using the variety of its playback options). If I follow the back and forth (and correct me if I'm mis-representing), the issue seems to revolve around differing conceptual expectations for voicing in the music score. I follow Don Ross's (and presumably others') 2 voice approach: using the software voicing capability primarily as a way of distinguishing finger strokes (voice 1/stems up) from thumb strokes (voice 2/stems down), as opposed to, say, distinguishing melody lines from harmony lines. Granted this can be confusing in trying to interpret a piece you have never heard, but that's a pretty rare situation for me. I encounter the issues with ambiguity in specifying note duration and need for showing lots of rests, as have been mentioned, but accept those as a consequence of how I use voicing. I admire guitarists who can readily decipher everything they need from a fully documented music staff, as York's scores are described, but that's way above my skill level.

[MikeB1]

This has been a very interesting thread.

I am working on improving my reading of music. I am familiar with the music that was displayed with one and two voices.

Could someone be so kind as to post an example of what music with 3 voices looks like?

[TBman]

Originally Posted by MikeB1

This has been a very interesting thread.

I am working on improving my reading of music. I am familiar with the music that was displayed with one and two voices.

Could someone be so kind as to post an example of what music with 3 voices looks like?

See post #7, the notation for Candlelight.

[dn402]

Originally Posted by MikeB1

This has been a very interesting thread.

I am working on improving my reading of music. I am familiar with the music that was displayed with one and two voices.

Could someone be so kind as to post an example of what music with 3 voices looks like?

Mike B1: It won't necessarily look different when all the voices are shown on a single staff as they are for guitar. Imagine a vocal piece with soprano, alto and bass parts. In notation software you could enter that as three separate voices (with stems up for the upper 2 and stems down for the bass part) or as two voices, where the soprano and alto lines could be entered as "doubled notes" (like two note chords) in voice 1 with the bass notes as voice 2. A lot of the prior discussion in the thread relates to what to do when the three voices all have different rhythm patterns. Hope this helps.

[MikeB1]

Yes, thanks for the clarification.

[rick-slo]

Usually three or more voices indicated in a score for multiple instruments playing such as this link of a condutor's score:

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qi...fa7598a30a1-lq





On the other hand the guitar part may be shown with one voice when playing with other instrument(s) such as this violin and guitar duo:

[Gitfiddlemann]

Originally Posted by MikeB1

This has been a very interesting thread.

I am working on improving my reading of music. I am familiar with the music that was displayed with one and two voices.

Could someone be so kind as to post an example of what music with 3 voices looks like?

Hi Mike,
Here is an example of music with 3 distinct voices. It's from Andrew York's piece "Deepening", which I happen to be also revisiting at the moment.
I circled each voice in the measures. This is how many of his pieces are composed. Not necessarily always of 3 voices, but independent lines of music that need to be treated as such for proper phrasing of the piece. Notation makes it relatively easy to discern what's going on. It would be difficult to capture all of that in TAB. You would know where to put your fingers, but to play it right would require more knowledge. A lot of his compositional style comes from using these independent voices coming together as a whole. And to know this is the key to making it sound the way it should, or at least giving you a better than decent chance.

Here is Deepening played by Andrew York himself. It's a very beautiful piece.

[MikeB1]

Thanks to everyone for all of the responses, explanations, and examples!!!