Alternatives to plugged in acoustics

[RJVB]

pickups, microphones ... radars or thermostats ... they're all sensors that pick up (usually) 1 thing and turn it into an electrical signal. If we're going to not-fuss-but-generalise, just as well take that additional step.

One reason I objected is that (IMHO) an electric guitar is just as much (i.e. NOT) a guitar in the general sense of the term as an electric or digial piano is a piano, or a piano a harpsichord (or organ) or a cello a viola da gamba. Instruments are traditionally classified after how they produce sound, not by how you play them.
The market has coined "electro-acoustic" for an acoustic guitar with a mechanical transducer, and acoustic-electric for instruments that are really intended to be played through their electro-magnetic PU but have a more or less (and sometimes very) decent acoustic voice too. Not ideal as terms go, but I'd say with stick to them.

[columbia]

Until I play a venue bigger than the ones Gillian Welch and David Rawlings play, I'll stick to the trusty SM57. If I ever need a pickup I'll buy a $400 used Ovation, preferably a sunburst Balladeer or one of those with the leaves.

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by columbia

Until I play a venue bigger than the ones Gillian Welch and David Rawlings play, I'll stick to the trusty SM57. If I ever need a pickup I'll buy a $400 used Ovation, preferably a sunburst Balladeer or one of those with the leaves.

I was just thinking about Gillian Welch and David Rawlings in relation to this thread earlier today. You have expressed my thoughts perfectly.

I play/sing at a number of local events without any p. a. (i.e. why on earth would you need an amp in a coffee shop!). If the stage needs a "lift" then I single mic'. And going for a 58 for vocals and 57 for guitar is if I need to really power it out.

As I have said before - I expect many amateur guitarists (like I am) today have never learned how to use a mic' set-up for gigs. Or they may try once, fail, and that's it. Yes, I may be slightly quieter overall than the open mic act before me but, if I'm any good, I'll shut up the noisy audience that was talking all the way through their spot.

[tdrake]

Originally Posted by columbia

Until I play a venue bigger than the ones Gillian Welch and David Rawlings play, I'll stick to the trusty SM57. If I ever need a pickup I'll buy a $400 used Ovation, preferably a sunburst Balladeer or one of those with the leaves.

Welch and Rawlings play venues where the audience silently listens. I've played those shows -- songwriter stages, outdoor bluegrass festivals etc. -- and a mic works great.

And man I love playing or seeing those shows!

But the coffee shops I and many of us play are essentially bars at night and certainly as loud and packed as any bar. And then bars are, well, bars.

Heck, even with monitors I struggled to hear myself on those stages - not because the band is loud but because the crowd is rowdy.

Still, Robin's success with that approach intrigues me, and I'm curious about it for quieter venues.

Still, tho, on the other, other hand... ...why do the majority of top touring acts/performers use pickups if this mic-ed approach can work so well? Why don't we see that commonly on, say, Austin City Limits? One assumes those top shelf acts working with pro sound engineers (vs. me running my own board from the stage etc.) could use whatever they wanted and would use whatever works best.

[PineMarten]

There have been a few players I've enjoyed using a soundhole magnetic into an electric guitar amp and going for a consciously amped sound, and if I ever get into solo performing past the occasional open mic I'd be very tempted to use my Lawrence soundhole pickup and homebuilt Princeton Reverb-esque amp. If it's done well, it can be interestingly different from a solid solidbody electric or jazz box sound. Just as an example, here's Richard Dawson a few years ago with his mangled Baby Taylor.

[WolfmansBrother]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

I’m gigging with a solid body electric the last few years. I do use it with a classic electric guitar bridge pickup light overdrive for songs like CCR’s Green River, but mostly the neck pickup fairly mellow with reverb. Not an acoustic tone, but I’m in Key West this week and much better sounding than all the ice pick toned acoustics I’m hearing here. So far not one decent sounding dual source or ToneDexterized guitar. And these people are good!

One person came up to me recently and asked me how I got such a great acoustic tone out of my electric… I use a Positive Grid Spark as my amp and effect unit and it has lots of great options to beautify an electric guitar.

An archtop guitar would go to the same place with less visual dissonance.

I play guitar and I sing. My approach is similar to this. For the last few gigs that I have had, I played an acoustic guitar for the first set, and then switched to an electric guitar for the remaining sets.

The acoustic guitar that I use is my 50s J-45 with the stock LR Baggs Element VTC pickup. It sounds okay, but not great.

I use a Carr Impala as my amp for it's tone, low noise floor, and reliability. The electric guitar that I use is a Gibson Johnny A Standard. It's a hollow body guitar with a pair of humbuckers. It provides all the tones that I need.

If I have any gigs come up this summer, I am going to just go straight electric for all of the sets. When playing live, I am more comfortable playing an electric than acoustic, and I prefer the sound of an amplified electric guitar over an amplified acoustic guitar. I would bring the Johnny A as my main guitar, and my Telecaster as a backup.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by RJVB

I disagree, or we need yet another term for what we now understand as an electric guitar. Currently that's commonly understood as a guitar-like instrument where string vibrations are detected by a magnetic pickup that translates the vibrations of individual strings to as many currents, which usually get summed.

If we disregard magnetic pickups that you can indeed add to an acoustic guitar, all other forms transduce either actual sound(waves), soundboard vibrations or vibrations at the transfer point between saddle and soundboard. Or a combination thereof. Those transduced signals should be in a much closer relationship to the instrument's real (acoustic/unplugged) voice than the signal from a magnetic PU can ever hope to be (unless that's a PU picking up the vibration of a [very thin] steel top 8) ).

It's not clear why you left out microphone-based pickups from your list - maybe because doing that would imply that in your opinion, putting a singer in front of a microphone turns the person into an electric soprano/alto/.../bass?

Indeed
There have been so many of these threads you would think people would start to get it.
And while there is no need for new terminology, there may well be a need for more understanding of the possible difference between personal opinions and objective reality .


The truth is that any form of amplification mic or pickup is a compromise from the purely acoustic un amplified sound. And any and all compromise, is based totally on the individual subjective perspective of "what is the extent of the compromise " and " is it acceptable or not" (also totally subjective )
There is NO objective measure of "what is acceptable and what is not" in a compromise ... There is only individual subjective perspective and opinion
The suggestion that putting a pickup in an acoustic guitar magically turns it into an electric guitar is more imagination than reality.---- Is it a compromise ? of course.-- is it an electric ? of course not, they are different animals sonically and feel

[rllink]

As much as I appreciate the experience of many here like Robin who like to mic their acoustics and have had years of experience doing so, last summer I played outside a lot in the wind and I battled the mic for most of it. The combination of the wind, the other ambient noises, and evidently I can't stand still so I turn a lot made it tough for me. Anyway, this winter I decided to give in and bought a Gretsch hollow body electric guitar. I don't know it if is going to work better or not this summer, but realistically as much as I like to consider myself an acoustic guitar player, that pure acoustic sound is probably not going to be a big factor with the audiences we play for. I guess we will see.

[YeOldRocker]

I'm not sure what size rooms some here are playing, but most venues I've encountered, even solo, are way too noisy to use a mic and there's no way even the loudest dread would cut the room(s). Whether that's because of the crowd noise itself, the size of the room, or a loud vocal PA, or other musicians (in a band setting), or whatever. Most sound people won't even let you set up a mic for your guitar, so that's usually not an option, anyway.

Which ultimately brings me/us back to acoustic pickup systems. Some do a better job of sounding more like your actual acoustic guitar than others, but those also tend to feedback more in loud(er) settings. EQ, phase buttons, compression, and other processing, usually help kill some of the overly bright/brittle problems, but many purists don't want to add any processing at all, saying that now all you've got is an electric guitar. Truth is, even the best pickup systems won't sound exactly like your unplugged acoustic guitar. But it doesn't mean it has to sound bad; part of accepting processing is understanding you're trying to recreate natural acoustic sound, unnaturally. Most of us don't have a problem doing that to our vocals over a PA system, but somehow an acoustic guitar must stay completely acoustic. In most live settings, unfortunately, that can't be done.

The reason to play an acoustic with a pickup instead of a true electric is because they are very different instruments, physically speaking, and those differences affect the way you play; your technique changes, picking and strumming attack are different, string response is different, etc. So, other than having a cleaner signal from a true electric, it's really not a substitute for an acoustic guitar, rather just a way to not deal with problems inherent in amplifying an acoustic. Depending on the music, that might be a fine choice to make, but it really isn't an alternative to an acoustic guitar, per se.

To me, it's less about how much your actual guitar sounds like itself over a PA, and more about how you're playing the music. I've played electrics most of my life and am/was much more comfortable on an electric for the better part of, well, let's say lots of years. But as I began to play more frequently on acoustics, particularly solo shows, I've adapted my style and the songs themselves for that instrument.

Overall, my takeaway is not to get too precious about acoustic sounds coming out of the PA; it will still sound like an acoustic guitar, amplified, and your playing will support that. Which is ultimately the point.

[JackB1]

Originally Posted by YeOldRocker

I'm not sure what size rooms some here are playing, but most venues I've encountered, even solo, are way too noisy to use a mic and there's no way even the loudest dread would cut the room(s). Whether that's because of the crowd noise itself, the size of the room, or a loud vocal PA, or other musicians (in a band setting), or whatever. Most sound people won't even let you set up a mic for your guitar, so that's usually not an option, anyway.

Which ultimately brings me/us back to acoustic pickup systems. Some do a better job of sounding more like your actual acoustic guitar than others, but those also tend to feedback more in loud(er) settings. EQ, phase buttons, compression, and other processing, usually help kill some of the overly bright/brittle problems, but many purists don't want to add any processing at all, saying that now all you've got is an electric guitar. Truth is, even the best pickup systems won't sound exactly like your unplugged acoustic guitar. But it doesn't mean it has to sound bad; part of accepting processing is understanding you're trying to recreate natural acoustic sound, unnaturally. Most of us don't have a problem doing that to our vocals over a PA system, but somehow an acoustic guitar must stay completely acoustic. In most live settings, unfortunately, that can't be done.

The reason to play an acoustic with a pickup instead of a true electric is because they are very different instruments, physically speaking, and those differences affect the way you play; your technique changes, picking and strumming attack are different, string response is different, etc. So, other than having a cleaner signal from a true electric, it's really not a substitute for an acoustic guitar, rather just a way to not deal with problems inherent in amplifying an acoustic. Depending on the music, that might be a fine choice to make, but it really isn't an alternative to an acoustic guitar, per se.

To me, it's less about how much your actual guitar sounds like itself over a PA, and more about how you're playing the music. I've played electrics most of my life and am/was much more comfortable on an electric for the better part of, well, let's say lots of years. But as I began to play more frequently on acoustics, particularly solo shows, I've adapted my style and the songs themselves for that instrument.

Overall, my takeaway is not to get too precious about acoustic sounds coming out of the PA; it will still sound like an acoustic guitar, amplified, and your playing will support that. Which is ultimately the point.

Very well said! ..................................