Bigger sounding smaller body guitar?

[Deliberate1]

Originally Posted by Michael Watts

That was the whole idea behind the MDW, my signature guitar by Jason Kostal

Yes, Michael, that pretty much nails it.
As an aside, I greatly enjoyed your videos shot at Turnstone and am more than a bit smitten by Roise's work, especially her builds with unique species from the UK (eg: bog wood). If you do not mind the question, how would you spec out to her a guitar that addresses the big sound from a small body conundrum.
Cheers,
David

[dneal]

Originally Posted by Deliberate1

I am looking for a box that is smaller in the hand but sounds big to the ear. I am new to the guitar world but have jumped in, both feet, with no life vest.
Just a year ago, I bought my first guitar, a lovely Larrivee 000-40 RE custom. Without knowing really what it was, it has proved just perfect, especially the size. Then late last year, wanting to try a dread size box, I found a Bourgeois Slope D 12 fret. It is a great instrument in so many ways, but it feels like I am hugging a bear, or what I imagine that be like. If it was my first guitar, I probably would not have known any better. But the 000 size is just perfect in my arms. And the dread less so.
I have since looked at a variety of body shapes and sizes - Concert, Grand Concert, 0000, unique and others - until my eyeballs bled.
I have read many reviews of smaller (aka parlor/00) size guitars that seem to defy physics and sound bigger. I am not interested in that size. But I would love to have a 000-size guitar (short scale? 12 fret?) that has the voice of a bigger guitar, particularly on the bass end. To that end, are there makers, wood combinations, neck lengths that I should explore. I have to say, it has been a very enjoyable trip down the rabbit hole....
Thanks
David

I started on a classical, and wanted a similarly sized body in a steel string - with the full, balanced sound of my classical. This was before the small body revolution we have now, and I spent 10 years looking and being disappointed. Name the production “mini”, “parlor”, etc... and I’ve probably tried or owned one. A lot of them sound good and are enjoyable. Most of them lack the fullness of a bigger guitar, but people seem to not be able to admit this when they own one.

I found Froggy Bottom, and am an unabashed fan. They are impossibly full and loud, and break every notion conventional wisdom would lead you to believe about small bodied guitars. A C or H12, as already recommended, will amaze you. So will a P. I’ve owned an H12 and a P12, and still have an L (the smallest model).

The folks at FB aren’t the only ones who can do this. You’re much less likely to find something in a production guitar, but there are a bunch of luthiers that can build a small guitar with a full sound. I have a Rein 00 that is amazing, for example. Froggy Bottom are just more readily available on the used market at somewhat reasonable (but not cheap) prices. You’re looking at $4k and up now, depending on the condition; and $4k isn’t as easily found as it once was. More common is the $5-6k range (for near mint condition).

I’ve found that the wood doesn’t matter really. It’s the builder. You’re not going to get mega-bass just because a guitar uses rosewood, for example; but it usually sounds like it adds a little because the mids aren’t quite as prominent. Listen to a D18 (Mahogany) and D28 (Rosewood) blind, and the rosewood doesn’t really make a big difference to the amount of bass. I’ll be hauled off for heresy in a moment or two...

[Michael Watts]

Originally Posted by Deliberate1

Yes, Michael, that pretty much nails it.
As an aside, I greatly enjoyed your videos shot at Turnstone and am more than a bit smitten by Roise's work, especially her builds with unique species from the UK (eg: bog wood). If you do not mind the question, how would you spec out to her a guitar that addresses the big sound from a small body conundrum.
Cheers,
David

That's a great question!

I suspect that my conversation with Rosie might be different to anyone else's as we all look for different things in a guitar. That said we would look at scale length, body shape and size and fretboard length first of all before addressing wood combinations.

I would only approach a luthier with a pretty clear brief of what I am looking for informed by personal experience and preferences.

That said, if I was going to have that conversation with Rosie at some point it would doubtless involve a 12 fret neck, 25" scale (or whatever in mm as she's metric ugh) around her 15" TM shape. Maybe dreadnought depth. No cutaway, or bevels or soundport. Slot headstock.

That's how I'd start that conversation with anyone really.

Intent -> Specs + Measurements -> Materials

All the best

M

[Deliberate1]

Originally Posted by Michael Watts

That's a great question!


That said, if I was going to have that conversation with Rosie at some point it would doubtless involve a 12 fret neck, 25" scale (or whatever in mm as she's metric ugh) around her 15" TM shape. Maybe dreadnought depth. No cutaway, or bevels or soundport. Slot headstock.

M

Very kind, Michael.
Best to you.
David

[Michael Watts]

Originally Posted by Deliberate1

Very kind, Michael.
Best to you.
David

My pleasure! I'm always happy to help.

M

[Deliberate1]

Originally Posted by dneal

I’ve found that the wood doesn’t matter really. It’s the builder....I’ll be hauled off for heresy in a moment or two...

Is not truth a defense to the charge of preaching false gospel?
Umm...not really. .
Obliged for yours.
David

[handers]

Originally Posted by Deliberate1

I am looking for a box that is smaller in the hand but sounds big to the ear. I am new to the guitar world but have jumped in, both feet, with no life vest.
Just a year ago, I bought my first guitar, a lovely Larrivee 000-40 RE custom. Without knowing really what it was, it has proved just perfect, especially the size. Then late last year, wanting to try a dread size box, I found a Bourgeois Slope D 12 fret. It is a great instrument in so many ways, but it feels like I am hugging a bear, or what I imagine that be like. If it was my first guitar, I probably would not have known any better. But the 000 size is just perfect in my arms. And the dread less so.
I have since looked at a variety of body shapes and sizes - Concert, Grand Concert, 0000, unique and others - until my eyeballs bled.
I have read many reviews of smaller (aka parlor/00) size guitars that seem to defy physics and sound bigger. I am not interested in that size. But I would love to have a 000-size guitar (short scale? 12 fret?) that has the voice of a bigger guitar, particularly on the bass end. To that end, are there makers, wood combinations, neck lengths that I should explore. I have to say, it has been a very enjoyable trip down the rabbit hole....
Thanks
David

Many people say this about Froggy Bottom Guitars. A consistent comment about the parlor (P) is that it sounds so big.

In have a Froggy 000 12 fret cutaway (H12c) and it's a perfect guitar for me. I don't play bluegrass well but have used it in an acoustic trio (mando, banjo) and it was not overpowered by the others. I use classical right hand technique and the guitar sings. Loves a good pick too.

Just something to consider.

hans

[llew]

The Huss & Dalton CM can be had in both 12 or 14 fret configurations with or without a cutaway. Deep body but smaller than a dread. Might be worth a look? Best of luck!

[Lakewood_Lad]

Originally Posted by Nemoman

My new Arum built by Ben Wilborn certainly punches much higher than its weight class and has amazing bass projection and presence.

You can check it out here played by Ben himself...



Good luck with your quest!

I've watched/listened to a lot of Ben Wilborn's videos and been a silent, secret fan of his for a while now. I'd absolutely love to get one of his instruments and hope, one day, that I will. Holy Cow that one is a beautiful guitar.

[Lakewood_Lad]

Yairi make some lovely, small 12 fret guitars with rosewood or mahogany back and sides. They might well do for you.

[Maryc-k]

David, Somewhere I thought you mentioned you’d acquired a Froggy H12. These are generally fairly loud and very comfortable to play.

[Brent Nelson]

Martin CEO 7.

[Deliberate1]

Originally Posted by Maryc-k

David, Somewhere I thought you mentioned you’d acquired a Froggy H12. These are generally fairly loud and very comfortable to play.

Yes, I did. And it is all that. It is very good to know that what I have is what many have suggested is mighty for its size. Out of curiosity, I did a quick and dirty comparison between the Bourgeois Slope S and Froggy Bottom H12 to confirm my perception that the bigger body makes the bigger sound, because that is how I hear it. Not a very scientific method, but close enough. Both guitars have recent strings, though the FB have gotten more use. I set a decibel meter about 18" from the tone hole and played a single low E string multiple times to try to intuit an identical amount of energy. I then took readings from both guitars. To my ear, the Bourgeois sounded noticeably louder, just as it always does. But not to the meter. Much to my surprise, the Froggy Bottom put out basically the same volume as the Bourgeois despite its difference in body size and the fact that it has a 25" scale. I reproduced the "experiment" several times. And got the same results. The two guitars produced basically the same sound pressure with the basically the same amount of energy applied. The limits of the test are obvious. I cannot exert a precisely reproducible amount of force with each strum. And the guitars were not precisely the same distance from the meter at all times. Nevertheless, the results were consistent. That said, I did not exert anything close to maximal force to push the limits of each guitar. And it is possible that the Bourgeois is capable of reaching a louder volume than the FB with more pressure. And that led me to wonder what the benchmark for volume should be when we discuss how "loud" a guitar is. Is it how loud it is in the course of normal use (its efficiency), or what the potential volume is with maximal pressure applied. And beyond that, how does the signature of the sound from the guitar affect our perception of the volume. To be sure, the FB and Bourgeois "sound" very different, even if they are producing sound at the same pressure. Does a guitar that emphasizes primary tones vs. overtones appear louder. Anyways, I am most grateful for your interest in this thread, for helping me work my way through this and reach a rather confounding result. Beyond the science, I am grateful to have works of art that are beautiful to look at and to listen to. David

[ChuckS]

Measuring the SPL at a point out front of the guitar is a number for comparison, but is that what's important to you. Are you more concerned about the sound level delivered to the player (how it wraps around) or to an audience (how it projects and/or fills the space)? Or are you concerned about it's volume at a distance used for recording microphones?

The other big thing for me is whether tone is being compromised in order to provide volume.

[dneal]

Originally Posted by Deliberate1

I would love to have a 000-size guitar (short scale? 12 fret?) that has the voice of a bigger guitar, particularly on the bass end.

Originally Posted by Maryc-k

David, Somewhere I thought you mentioned you’d acquired a Froggy H12.

Originally Posted by Deliberate1

Yes, I did. And it is all that.

So I’m really confused as to what you are looking for. You have a 000 sized, short scale 12 fret in the H12. If you want “the voice of a bigger guitar”, and that H12 doesn’t scratch your itch... I don’t think you’re going to find it.

The H12 I owned sounded “bigger” and had more bass than my son’s Huss and Dalton DM. I can only think of two guitars that would run with it: A Goodall TR-000 I ran across in Germany, which was even richer sounding than the Frog, and a Bourgeois 000 that was as rich but a little more mellow. I had an HD28 that was the mother of all bass cannons, but that’s back to dreads.

I think you’re going to be looking at some of the more expensive luthiers (and their wait lists, if buying new). I would suggest a trip to some of the better boutiques - The Music Emporium, Dream Guitars, and Guitar Gallery to name a few. A plane ticket and a hotel room will be money well invested at this price point.

If he doesn’t chime in, I would PM Bobby Swanson (SuperB23 on the forum). He’s probably had more quality guitars pass through his hands than most here. He might be able to steer you to something, and have the personal experience to back it up.