Demo: Replacing the Element in an Anthem with Barbera

[Doug Young]

There's been some discussion of replacing the Element undersaddle in an Anthem with an LB6 (which has one string out of phase). I did an experiment tonight that may shed a little light on this. I have an Rainsong APSE, which I generally use as a vacation travel guitar, but I have done a few gigs with it. It has an Anthem StagePro in it. I have heard the Anthem sound really good in a lot of guitars, but it's been disappointing in this guitar. Kind of muddy, and with some string balance issues. Carbon Fiber guitar, of course, so expectations are a bit different. So I decided to try getting it closer to the pickup setup I've used elsewhere, starting with replacing the Element with a Barbera Soloist (which has every other string out of phase).

This was pretty easy to do, since the Element just has a 2.5mm mini-plug on it that plugs into the onboard preamp. So I pulled it out, put a Barbera in, wired to a 2.5mm plug, and plugged it in. Then for good measure, I added a "real" internal mic, the Audix L5O. I thought about trying to put it in place of the TruMic - maybe an experiment for another day - but instead I left the TruMic wired in as usual, and replaced the end-pin jack with a stereo jack so I could add my mic on the ring.

So I ended up with the standard stuff of the Lyric, ability to blend between full mic and just pickup, all the controls, TruMic blend, tuner, EQ, etc, work as normal, plus I have the Audix available on the ring if used with a TRS cable and appropriate preamp.

Here's a brief demo of how it sounds, recording directly out of my pedal board. I used the center detent position for the mix control, so 50% of the way between raw pickup and full TruMic for all samples. In order:

1) Original Anthem Pro with the Element

2) Replacing the Element with a Barbera Soloist (1 and 2 are the most basic "element vs Barbera w/TruMic" comparison)

I also messed with ToneDexter:

3) Original Anthem Pro, thru Tonedexter, trained on the Rainsong

4) Barbera Soloist , thru ToneDexter, but using a wavemap trained on a similar-sized wood guitar with a Barbera (probably not ideal, since the other guitar didn't have the TruMic included...)

Finally, adding in the Audix (stereo, courtesy of the SunnAudip preamp)

5) Barbera/TruMic/Tonedexter + internal Audix L5O mini-mic



I probably need to mess a bit more with ToneDexter to see if I can get a better wavemap of this specific guitar. But anyway, see what you think, which works better? Work in progress...

[rockabilly69]

Much better string separation and cleaner lowend with the Barbera. It's pretty amazing how well the Barbera is interfacing with the StagePro preamp, I'm generally not a fan of any LR Baggs pickups, they just have an uncontrollable low-end mud, but the StagePro is my favorite of all of their pickups, and yes I have had them all except the LB6 saddle. The StagePro preamp really helps the Anthem system with it's phase, mix and EQ controls, and it's much easier to dial on stage than the regular Anthem systems with their tiny internal controls. Although the tuner is ridiculously hard to see and slow to lock to notes. With the Barbera pickup it sounds loads better. I gave my son one of my guitars that has a StagePro in it, so maybe I'll buy him the Barbera if he continues to excel in his practice (he's doing great so far). Thanks for doing this Doug.

One question is it fairly easy for a luthier to compensate the top of the Barbera pickup?

The Stage Pro pickup is in this guitar, the Airlines ruined the side-mounted B-Band T65 preamp - XOM system that was in it, so I replaced it with a Anthem Stage Pro since it already had a hole cut in the side that was about the same size.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by rockabilly69

One question is it fairly easy for a luthier to compensate the top of the Barbera pickup?

I don't think so, but it comes "pre-compensated". In the Rainsong, I was replacing a standard Tusq saddle with it's B-string comp, so I actually think it's better compensated now. Each string is slightly different on the Barbera. I have this pickup in 4 guitars now, including a Ryan, and intonation seems to not be an issue anywhere.

A possibly bigger concern is that the fit is somewhat limited. Rich can make custom sizes, but the standard sizes come in a couple of heights and lengths, and neither can be adjusted. Thickness is what it is, I believe (1/8 inch, fairly standard, but not universal). So you have to measure carefully, and then what Rich recommends is that you get a saddle slightly shorter than you need and use a shim. In the RainSong, one of his standard sizes was basically the exact height, so I have no shim. I have shims in the other 3 installs, and haven't been bothered by it. All guitars seem to sound equal to, or better than they did with the original saddle. But there are guitars where this pickup won't fit, and/or you might need some adjustment to the saddle slot.

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I don't think so, but it comes "pre-compensated". In the Rainsong, I was replacing a standard Tusq saddle with it's B-string comp, so I actually think it's better compensated now. Each string is slightly different on the Barbera. I have this pickup in 4 guitars now, including a Ryan, and intonation seems to not be an issue anywhere.

A possibly bigger concern is that the fit is somewhat limited. Rich can make custom sizes, but the standard sizes come in a couple of heights and lengths, and neither can be adjusted. Thickness is what it is, I believe (1/8 inch, fairly standard, but not universal). So you have to measure carefully, and then what Rich recommends is that you get a saddle slightly shorter than you need and use a shim. In the RainSong, one of his standard sizes was basically the exact height, so I have no shim. I have shims in the other 3 installs, and haven't been bothered by it. All guitars seem to sound equal to, or better than they did with the original saddle. But there are guitars where this pickup won't fit, and/or you might need some adjustment to the saddle slot.

I will pull the saddle out and measure it when my son comes for his next lesson, then I will contact Rich to ask about which one to order. My luthier can do any saddle slot adjustment needed. Once again thanks for the info!

[MrErikJ]

Very novel experiment, Doug. Well done!

I will say that, personally, I don’t perceive any phasing issues with the Soloist in the Anthem and I like it’s sound better.

Also, I preferred the Barbera Anthem without the Tonedexter but that’s just me.

[guitaniac]

Thanks for the experiment and extensive report, Doug. Its good to learn that the Barbera Soloist blends pretty well with the mics.

I'm surprised that the Soloist doesn't strongly overdrive the Element preamp. I say this because I once tried to run an LB6 into a Fishman Prefix onboard preamp. The LB6 signal severely overdrove that preamp with any string attack beyond an extremely gentle attack. We had to disconnect the LB6 and run it passively. ( Interesting aside: We could have installed a certain sized capacitor in parallel with the LB6, but neither myself or my tech were knowledgeable enough to know how to do that. The old Baggs Hex system actually came with two capacitors which corresponded with two Baggs onboard preamps which users might have wanted to employ with the Hex.)


Thanks again for the interesting experiment and report.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by MrErikJ

Also, I preferred the Barbera Anthem without the Tonedexter but that’s just me.

Yeah, ToneDexter isn't sounding its best here, but I think the reasons are that this isn't an exact match wavemap. I haven't liked the results of training on the Rainsong (it just doesn't sound that good mic'd), so I'm using a wavemap from another guitar, and the pickup isn't an exact match, since the Rainsong pickup is including the TruMic, and TD wasn't trained on that. I hope with some more work, I can get a better TD wavemap for this. It may be better with just the full pickup, no TruMic blended.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

Thanks for the experiment and extensive report, Doug. Its good to learn that the Barbera Soloist blends pretty well with the mics.

I'm surprised by two things.

1) I'm surprised that the Soloist doesn't strongly overdrive the Element preamp.

I was concerned about that, but you don' know till you try. Doesn't seem to be an issue. All very dependent the output of the pickups involved, headroom of the preamp, all of which I don't know. The output of the system doesn't seem to be particularly hotter (didn't actually measure anything, tho), so maybe the pickup outputs aren't that different. Some time back I used a Wavelength preamp with K&Ks - prompting the same concern. But it actually worked great, tho that system had a *hot* output.

I do hear some "compression" that I don't hear on other guitars with the Barbera. Might be something about the preamp, or it may just be the guitar, which has a sort of compressed sound even acoustically.

2) I'm surprised because I thought that the Element preamp's jack was 2.5mm.

Sorry, I misspoke in my original post, it's a 2.5mm jack, and I wired the Barbera to a 2.5mm plug. I'll fix the post so no one follows the wrong path!

[Petty1818]

Doug, in your experience, how does the LB6 compare to the Barbera Soloist? I have personally gone back to the Matrix/Aura set up and have been experimenting with the Baggs Session in the mix as well. I am getting some incredible tones. Still, the LB6 intrigues me due to the passive set up and the apparently fuller/fatter tone.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

Doug, in your experience, how does the LB6 compare to the Barbera Soloist? I have personally gone back to the Matrix/Aura set up and have been experimenting with the Baggs Session in the mix as well. I am getting some incredible tones. Still, the LB6 intrigues me due to the passive set up and the apparently fuller/fatter tone.

It's been ages since I tried an LB6, so it's hard to remember accurately. My recollection was that it had a fairly distinctive sound, heavy (somewhat unbalanced) low E string, which can be good or bad. With the micarta, it had a slightly "spongey" effect on the acoustic tone, but Bob Colosi's bone version fixes that. Overall, with the caveat that I haven't A/B'd them directly, and haven't heard an LB6 in years, I'd consider the Barbera a significant step up.

[guitaniac]

Thanks for the correction on the jack size, Doug. I'll edit out the references to jack and plug size in my post, as I don't want my comments to mislead anyone either.

[GuitarLuva]

Doug,
Thanks for sharing your experiment. I also done it with the normal full anthem (non barn door) and it works fine with that system as well. The Barbera does sound so much nicer with a little bit of air added to it. My next experiment, whenever I get around to it, is trying it with my Schatten artist plus 2 preamp with the Barbera on input 1 and the baggs mic on input 2. Not sure how that one is going to work out yet using the tru mic without the anthem preamp circuitry.

[Mbroady]

Thanks for posting the comparison.
I found the Barbera w/TruMic to sound slightly more transparent then the Element with trumic.

My issue was never with the plug and play sound of the Anthem but with the tonal change of the guitar acoustically. Though you were not comparing the acoustic sound of the guitar, with and with out the UST, did you pay any attention to the sound of the guitar unplugged, before and after the switch. If yes, Any noticeable change in the unplugged tone of the guitar.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Mbroady

Thanks for posting the comparison.
I found the Barbera w/TruMic to sound slightly more transparent then the Element with trumic.

I found it be a pretty big difference, especially due to string balance - which might be correctable. If you listen to the Barbera, then the Anthem, you can probably hear that the initial melody notes on the high E string are all but totally missing with the Anthem...

My issue was never with the plug and play sound of the Anthem but with the tonal change of the guitar acoustically. Though you were not comparing the acoustic sound of the guitar, with and with out the UST, did you pay any attention to the sound of the guitar unplugged, before and after the switch. If yes, Any noticeable change in the unplugged tone of the guitar.

I think it sounds better acoustically (slightly) with the Barbera. A somewhat odd case, with this being a carbon fiber guitar, but it's felt too dull to me acoustically, and part of the goal of installing the Barbera was hoping it'd improve both plugged in and acoustic sound, by getting rid of both the Element and the Tusq saddle. I think it may have helped, but it's not dramatic.

My other installs of the Barbera are in "normal" :-) guitars. One, my Hamblin GC, replacing a bone saddle, I feel like the guitar made a major leap in tone (acoustically) around the time I installed the saddle. At the very least it didn't hurt. I also have one in another Hamblin, where I'd say there was no noticeable change. And I installed one in my Ryan GC, replacing a beautiful fossilized Walrus saddle (that hurt...) and again, I'd say no audible change. But none of those guitars had USTs in them, so I was just replacing bone/ivory saddles with the Barbera.

[guitaniac]

FWIW, I agree that the Barbera made a big difference in helping those high strings ring through. You may have gotten similar results with a deep and broad cut around 200 Hz. That's what I need to do with my own Anthem SL rig. My cedar-topped OM is excessively strong in the low mids to begin with, and I have a theory that the Anthem SL tends to put out an excessively strong signal around the crossover frequency (250 Hz) because both the UST and the mic are contributing somewhat to the signal.

I tried a Barbera Soloist for a bit and found it a bit unusual as it seemed to favor a modest mid cut around 500 Hz in my particular guitar (spruce/rosewood medium jumbo). A mid cut in the area of 1 KHz to 1.5 KHz has been typical for my other piezo-equipped rigs.