Are microphones like guitars?

[Atalkingsausage]

Does the mic you use to record have a huge influence on the sound you capture or is it more about the room, instrument, eq, performance, etc... I have a few different condensers and dynamics already, all around the $100 mark. Basically I'm trying to figure out if I am wasting my time trying to use these mics or is it possible to achieve a professional-ish recording using them as I get better with recording techniques, and using EQ... Are mics like guitars in that a low end mic will have a distinctive low end mic sound?

[muscmp]

if you let them be, yes.

if you can optimize all of your equipment that you are using on each track, you'll get the most out of your equipment and a solid sounding track.

play music!

[Fran Guidry]

Originally Posted by Atalkingsausage

Does the mic you use to record have a huge influence on the sound you capture or is it more about the room, instrument, eq, performance, etc... I have a few different condensers and dynamics already, all around the $100 mark. Basically I'm trying to figure out if I am wasting my time trying to use these mics or is it possible to achieve a professional-ish recording using them as I get better with recording techniques, and using EQ... Are mics like guitars in that a low end mic will have a distinctive low end mic sound?

I've done a few careful level matched same source mic comparisons over the years, sometimes including low cost mics vs pretty high end stuff. See what you think:

http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009/...on-a-tutorial/
http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009/...ur-more-clips/
http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2014/...es-a-mic-make/

My favorite such comparison, however, is one done years ago by Doug Young that I've reposted many times. In this one Doug did a recording using a pair of AT2020s and a pair of Brauners. While there is an audible difference between the $100 mics and the $5000 mics, the preference expressed by listeners has leaned slightly toward the less expensive pair as I recall. Take a listen:

http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/mp3/AB_MicCompare/A.mp3
http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/mp3/AB_MicCompare/B.mp3

I sure hope Doug never takes these clips down (grin).

Fran

[runamuck]

What Fran has posted, answers your question in its entirety, in my opinion.

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by Atalkingsausage

Does the mic you use to record have a huge influence on the sound you capture or is it more about the room, instrument, eq, performance, etc... I have a few different condensers and dynamics already, all around the $100 mark. Basically I'm trying to figure out if I am wasting my time trying to use these mics or is it possible to achieve a professional-ish recording using them as I get better with recording techniques, and using EQ... Are mics like guitars in that a low end mic will have a distinctive low end mic sound?

"Huge" is a subjective term and because of that, there's no right answer to this question. It really comes down to what your intentions are and what sounds good to you.

Personally, if I had to put the things you listed in order of importance, I'd say performance, room, mic, instrument, eq. There's one other thing that should be in there: recording engineer. I'd throw him/her in there at the top of the list because a great recording engineer can seemingly make magic happen.

As for getting professional results with cheap gear... sure, it's possible but it will take a lot of effort to pull off. I can perform brain surgery with a butter knife. I don't have a lot of experience and I don't have a lot of training, but if the stars align and I get lucky, I can do it. Now if I had better tools and better training, the odds of success go dramatically higher.

That's how I look at the possibility of getting professional results with cheap gear. However, that doesn't mean that you can't get results that are pleasing to YOUR ear and will be pleasing to your family and friends. Just because something isn't radio quality doesn't mean it can't be pleasing to some folks.

[ChuckS]

Originally Posted by Atalkingsausage

Does the mic you use to record have a huge influence on the sound you capture or is it more about the room, instrument, eq, performance, etc... I have a few different condensers and dynamics already, all around the $100 mark. Basically I'm trying to figure out if I am wasting my time trying to use these mics or is it possible to achieve a professional-ish recording using them as I get better with recording techniques, and using EQ... Are mics like guitars in that a low end mic will have a distinctive low end mic sound?

I'd say you are not going to be 'wasting your time' using the equipment that you have. It's a lot of fun, but time consuming, learning recording techniques and understanding/optimizing the gear you may already have. You may get to a point where you've reached a level of knowledge/experience and want something beyond what you are getting; at that point you might consider upgrading. However, what you choose to upgrade may or may not be your mics. I tend to feel you want your equipment (recording and playback chain, room, etc) to be somewhat 'balanced' in its capabilities (As in don't have one piece of extremely high end while most other pieces are very low end, or one piece that is so bad that it corrupts what all the good gear is providing).

On the other hand, what are your goals with your recordings and what makes you happy in this 'hobby' (assuming it's a hobby)? There are lots of guitar players who are content with their current guitar, which may not be a high end instrument. There are others who look for something specific, or just a change from what they have, and get a satisfaction/pleasure from buying what may be an expensive guitar (even if other people don't understand the logic in doing so). Likewise, some folks interested in recording like to see what's out there, and play around with it, just because it's rewarding to them. So, while AB recordings may not reveal or justify equipment costing many times more it may still be worth it to the owner.

I'd say mics are like guitars, where there really is no limit on how many you may buy and how much you may spend. It's all in what's important to you. That said, I was wondering if you'd like to buy one of my mics because I have a new pair coming soon.

[MikeBmusic]

Everything in the 'chain' is important. A $100 or $1000 mic will pickup the same room and performance imperfections (but the $1000 mic may pick them up better!)

[Bob Womack]

To an engineer, mics are very much like guitars, only we don't think in terms of cost of a mic, but the sound we want to get. An example?

Bill Szymczyk, producer/engineer for the Eagles, Joe Walsh, Edgar Winter, Rick Derringer, etc. tried a million ways to get a good high hat sound. He had access to mics costing hundreds and thousands of dollars. What ended up being his favorite high hat mic? A little inexpensive Sony ECM-50 lavaliere (lapel) mic. Why? Because it automatically rolled off all the bass, which the high hat had none of, removing most of the drums from the track.

So mics are like guitars in that you end up choosing them to shape the sound the way you want. Want brassy treble and a long ring? Use a rosewood/spruce guitar. Want to record a bright guitar without a lot of bass for use in an ensemble? Use an AKG C451. Dealing with a bright recording room and need more melow? Go with a large diaphragm condenser. We develop experience with multiple mics and choose them based upon those experiences.

If an inexpensive mic can do it I'll and I've had experience with it, I'll use it. I've seen lots of guys record a Leslie rotating speaker with a pair of Shure SM-57s and one ElectroVoice RE-20. That's $95 each for the SM-57s and $350 for the Re-20.

Can we hear the price point of a mic? Most of us can't. We can tell if something in the sound bothers us, for instance a funny capsule resonance or a weird presence response. The more expensive a mic is the more time and effort a company has probably put into getting rid of the resonances.

Much of that is adjustable with EQ, but that enters another area: a beginner may not hear those things and/or may not know how to deal with them. So an engineer may hear "bad mic choice or usage" or "I would have EQ'd it differently."

Geez. I did it again. Read all my verbiage above and see if it doesn't add up to, "It all depends."

Bob

[muscmp]

great response as usual bob. but, rick derringer not dick.

play music!

[Bob Womack]

Originally Posted by muscmp

great response as usual bob. but, rick derringer not dick.

play music!

Typo Dick strikes again. Notice the location on the keyboard.

Bob

[Fran Guidry]

One of my links above has a same source comparison of a CAD M179 and a Schoeps CMC64. The Schoeps is about 10 times the price of the CAD. I would be interested to hear how many folks heard 10 times better sound from the Schoeps ... or 2 times better ... or a noticeable difference.

As Bob says, there _are_ mics that make a big difference, just as there are guitars with a distinctive unerasable sound signature. A National Tricone will not be mistaken for a J45 any time soon. But just as many different rosewood/spruce guitars have a very similar sound and could be used interchangeably, there are many different mics which are effectively indistinguishable, especially to someone without years of experience and a very high quality playback chain.

Fran

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by Fran Guidry

I would be interested to hear how many folks heard 10 times better sound from the Schoeps

How do one quantify "10 times better sound"?

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Fran Guidry

One of my links above has a same source comparison of a CAD M179 and a Schoeps CMC64. The Schoeps is about 10 times the price of the CAD. I would be interested to hear how many folks heard 10 times better sound from the Schoeps ... or 2 times better ... or a noticeable difference.

indistinguishable, especially to someone without years of experience and a very high quality playback chain.

Fran

You forgot to mention anyone suffering age related or noise related, hearing loss in your list, I know I have it .

And while I completely agree price alone does not excellence make. And very usable equipment exists at fairly modest price points no doubt.
But of course the exact same thing exists for guitars as well. But these truths do not negate the old also true adage, you tend to get what you pay for.

Couple questions for clarity.
So I watched the video . Is it just camera angle or is the Schoeps sitting slightly behind the CAD ? Also what is the rest of the recording chain ? And what file resolution did you upload to youtube ? As all these things can have an effect.

And in answer to your question after careful listening, the difference in sound is admittedly slight (very subtle ) on my lap top earbuds, but it is none the less there The Schopes is a slightly fuller and balanced sound with a bit better detail. Also (not at my studio but) seems like the CAD has a slight hype in the upper mids. guess is

And of course 10 times or 2 times is subjective and thus not particularly relevant unless of course you base your decisions only on price. Also it should be noted that recording a single acoustic guitar track any slight difference in anything like slightly lacking in dynamics, or hyped, or higher noise floor will not be as noticeable as when you start recording multiple tracks

[midwinter]

As someone who just upgraded to his first "real" mic, and who was always skeptical about the audible difference between a $1000 mic and a $300 mic, I immediately did a side-by-side comparison of them with both my old instrument mics (Røde M5s) and my old vocal mic (AT 2050) running through the same preamp/settings/etc.

I was frankly astonished at what I heard in terms of detail, clarity, and transients on the "real" mic vs the cheaper one.

I just did a little recording today and when I listened back, it was incredible to realize that I just didn't need to do much to it at all in terms of EQ. A little compression and a little reverb and I was done. I realized at one point that, basically, I was EQing the *guitar* and not the mic.

I say this not so much as an endorsement of expensive mics; I'm really mostly saying that there are perceptible, and sometimes stunning, differences between cheap mics and expensive mics. But like Bob said, it all depends on what you're going for or what you need.

[M Hayden]

Mics aren't something I really know about like Fran.

Even so, I've got 4 large diaphragm condensers, all used. Two are very basic mics which I purchased used at a steep discount and the other two are a bit better, also purchased used.

For recording solo acoustic guitar, I've learned to set up all of the LD mics up in a room with the two better ones up close and the other two further away, getting more room sound. That setup, plus pickup track or two through a good preamp (just in case), makes it possible to capture and mix a surprisingly nice and clear recorded sound. It's not as good as old CSN&Y recordings or such, but for comparatively inexpensive gear, it's a pleasant surprise.