The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Electric Guitars

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #16  
Old 09-10-2018, 10:50 AM
jonfields45 jonfields45 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Allentown, PA
Posts: 4,598
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidd View Post
Most amp techs I know don't want to go anywhere near PCB amps if they can avoid working them.
I'll give the modern Fender PCB designs credit for being laid out in a way that service is relatively straightforward, and it will be much much less required. I've clearly not seen all the amps on the market to know how its been handled across the industry, and surface mount digital amps are probably only serviceable by PCB replacement, like your PC.

Double blind tests are hard to arrange and generally debunk a lot of what is assumed to be known. However, life is not a blind test and you should always buy what you like and can afford.
__________________
jf45ir Free DIY Acoustic Guitar IR Generator
.wav file, 30 seconds, pickup left, mic right, open position strumming best...send to direct email below
I'll send you 100/0, 75/25, 50/50 & 0/100 IR/Bypass IRs
IR Demo, read the description too: https://youtu.be/SELEE4yugjE
My duo's website and my email... [email protected]

Jon Fields

Last edited by jonfields45; 09-10-2018 at 11:17 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 09-10-2018, 04:18 PM
clintj clintj is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Idaho Falls, ID
Posts: 4,267
Default

The reissues are not as repair prone as the Hot Rod series in my experience. It's currently about a 9 to 1 ratio the last couple of years in my repair log. They lack the two Achilles heels of the HR amps: the dropping resistors for the reverb/fx loop drivers and relays, and the board mounted tube sockets. The boards seem just a little more stout, too.

I've hooked a couple of players here up with a good sounding combo last year. Snag a used Deluxe Reverb Reissue, swap in a WGS ET65 speaker, and add a pair of fresh, matched power tubes biased properly. Those two changes alone do wonders for the sound of the amp.
__________________
"You don't have to be great to start, but you have to start to be great." -Zig Ziglar

Acoustics
2013 Guild F30 Standard
2012 Yamaha LL16
2007 Seagull S12
1991 Yairi DY 50

Electrics
Epiphone Les Paul Standard
Fender Am. Standard Telecaster
Gibson ES-335
Gibson Firebird
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 09-10-2018, 05:52 PM
M Hayden M Hayden is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: The Glorious East SF Bay, CA
Posts: 1,064
Default

I've used a variety of P2P Fender amps across the range:
- blackface AB763 DR
- silverface AB868 / AB1172 / A1270

They've all been pretty good and easy to work on, with the AB763 with a JBL D120F being (IMO) the best-sounding circuit.

The new bf reissues are based on that AB763 circuit; on the whole, I think they sound amazingly good. They don't have the nice age and such that the old P2P amps have, but they sound just fine and break up and such just nicely.

The only issue I've heard - and I haven't experienced it - is cracking of the circuit boards from rough handling, which is mostly not a thing on the P2P amps.

I think Fender's to be commended on having built remarkably good reissue circuits at a price point which is accessible to so many people.....

(and I'm considering a 5F6A reissue Bassman, though it's waaaaay too big for anything I need....those things are remarkable).
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 09-10-2018, 08:28 PM
jonfields45 jonfields45 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Allentown, PA
Posts: 4,598
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by M Hayden View Post
The only issue I've heard - and I haven't experienced it - is cracking of the circuit boards from rough handling, which is mostly not a thing on the P2P amps.
As long as we are mentioning some less common data points, back in the 70's oscillating Fender amps were not uncommon (I owned one of them, a Twin Reverb). The hard board eyelet boards would absorb water and conduct where their impregnation failed (at least in NJ summer humidity). The way we fixed them was to float the components over the board in the impacted area, which was very ugly. You could also leave them on overnight and temporarily cook out the water. Fender actually offered to repair my Twin if I shipped it to them, which I declined. Presumably they would have replaced the eyelet board.

One of my high school bands in the very early 70's had three silver face Twin Reverbs. Two were loud and sounded fine (one of which was my newer master volume model) and one was a dog (it belonged to the keyboard player who did not seem inclined to get it fixed). I was too young at the time to know/offer to look for output stage bias problems that are often the culprit with a bad sounding tube amp.
__________________
jf45ir Free DIY Acoustic Guitar IR Generator
.wav file, 30 seconds, pickup left, mic right, open position strumming best...send to direct email below
I'll send you 100/0, 75/25, 50/50 & 0/100 IR/Bypass IRs
IR Demo, read the description too: https://youtu.be/SELEE4yugjE
My duo's website and my email... [email protected]

Jon Fields
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 09-10-2018, 09:09 PM
clintj clintj is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Idaho Falls, ID
Posts: 4,267
Default

The other fix I've seen is to strip the circuit board bare and use a heat gun to drive out the moisture. That problem seems to afflict both the tweed amps and post-CBS buyout amps where they started waxing the boards. The blackface amps' boards, by and large, seem more resistant to the boards going conductive like that. I very seldom get a vintage Fender in for repair around these parts, but I follow a few techs online that do so I can stay up to date.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonfields45 View Post
As long as we are mentioning some less common data points, back in the 70's oscillating Fender amps were not uncommon (I owned one of them, a Twin Reverb). The hard board eyelet boards would absorb water and conduct where their impregnation failed (at least in NJ summer humidity). The way we fixed them was to float the components over the board in the impacted area, which was very ugly. You could also leave them on overnight and temporarily cook out the water. Fender actually offered to repair my Twin if I shipped it to them, which I declined. Presumably they would have replaced the eyelet board.

One of my high school bands in the very early 70's had three silver face Twin Reverbs. Two were loud and sounded fine (one of which was my newer master volume model) and one was a dog (it belonged to the keyboard player who did not seem inclined to get it fixed). I was too young at the time to know/offer to look for output stage bias problems that are often the culprit with a bad sounding tube amp.
__________________
"You don't have to be great to start, but you have to start to be great." -Zig Ziglar

Acoustics
2013 Guild F30 Standard
2012 Yamaha LL16
2007 Seagull S12
1991 Yairi DY 50

Electrics
Epiphone Les Paul Standard
Fender Am. Standard Telecaster
Gibson ES-335
Gibson Firebird
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 09-10-2018, 10:54 PM
M Hayden M Hayden is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: The Glorious East SF Bay, CA
Posts: 1,064
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonfields45 View Post
As long as we are mentioning some less common data points, back in the 70's oscillating Fender amps were not uncommon (I owned one of them, a Twin Reverb). The hard board eyelet boards would absorb water and conduct where their impregnation failed (at least in NJ summer humidity). The way we fixed them was to float the components over the board in the impacted area, which was very ugly. You could also leave them on overnight and temporarily cook out the water. Fender actually offered to repair my Twin if I shipped it to them, which I declined. Presumably they would have replaced the eyelet board.
I have a ‘65 DR (OH tube chart....) and it sat in a CT basement in winter. The eyelet board had to dry out, so I set the amp near a heating vent and left it on for days. It dried out, thankfully, and has not had that problem since moving to the west coast where humidity is lower.

Dan Torres showed me a really warped board at his old San Mateo shop, and said that (amazingly) the amp it came out of had sounded fine. Those old amps are tough!
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 09-11-2018, 08:44 AM
davidd davidd is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,729
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by M Hayden View Post
I have a ‘65 DR (OH tube chart....) and it sat in a CT basement in winter. The eyelet board had to dry out, so I set the amp near a heating vent and left it on for days. It dried out, thankfully, and has not had that problem since moving to the west coast where humidity is lower.

Dan Torres showed me a really warped board at his old San Mateo shop, and said that (amazingly) the amp it came out of had sounded fine. Those old amps are tough!
Dan Torres! I lived only a mile or so away from his shop when he was in San Mateo. Thank god he relocated to the northwest. I wouldn't touch an amp he worked on. My buddy took an old Fender Precision to get it worked on there. Somehow it got "lost". I don't trust any tech who claims to be able to "improve" Leo's original designs.
__________________
1990 Martin D16-M
Gibson J45
Eastman E8D-TC
Pono 0000-30DC
Yamaha FSX5, LS16, FG830, FSX700SC
Epiphone EF500-RAN
2001 Gibson '58 Reissue LP
2005, 2007 Gibson '60 Reissue LP Special (Red&TV Yel)
1972 Yamaha SG1500, 1978 LP500
Tele's and Strats
1969,1978 Princeton Reverb
1972 Deluxe Reverb
Epiphone Sheraton, Riviera
DeArmond T400
Ibanez AS73
Quilter Superblock US[/I]
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 09-11-2018, 01:53 PM
M Hayden M Hayden is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: The Glorious East SF Bay, CA
Posts: 1,064
Default

At the time, he had parts I needed. I do most of my own work, but parts sourcing twenty years ago was much harder than today, and he was my contact for things like tremolo bugs and the like.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 09-11-2018, 05:15 PM
Steve DeRosa Steve DeRosa is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Staten Island, NY - for now
Posts: 14,983
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by M Hayden View Post
I've used a variety of P2P Fender amps across the range:
- blackface AB763 DR
- silverface AB868/AB1172/A1270

They've all been pretty good and easy to work on, with the AB763 with a JBL D120F being (IMO) the best-sounding circuit.

The new bf reissues are based on that AB763 circuit; on the whole, I think they sound amazingly good. They don't have the nice age and such that the old P2P amps have, but they sound just fine and break up and such just nicely.
PSA for the uninitiated: "great electric guitar tone" isn't necessarily about massive amounts of input gain and/or power-amp distortion, whatever the listening level. I've heard the combination you cite with a dual-pickup Gibson Johnny Smith, and IME it was/is the Holy Grail of jazz-guitar tone since Ampeg discontinued the original blue-check combos in the mid-60's: sweet, smooth, and rich beyond belief, with loads of dynamic range and clean headroom for a typical studio/club/small-to-medium house gig - the classic "tone you could eat with a spoon" that every mainstream jazz player strives for - and only the near-Twin Reverb weight keeps me from duplicating it in a reissue version (thankfully my Bugera V22, with its Eminence Swamp Thang and upgraded tubes, covers the same ground). FYI Fender recently issued a handwired '64 Deluxe Reverb RI - not cheap at $2500 street, but about what you'd pay for a dead-mint original with papers; good news is that you don't have to sweat the time/expense of replacing long-since worn-out components, and you've got a warranty to fall back on...
__________________
"Mistaking silence for weakness and contempt for fear is the final, fatal error of a fool"
- Sicilian proverb (paraphrased)
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 09-11-2018, 05:35 PM
M Hayden M Hayden is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: The Glorious East SF Bay, CA
Posts: 1,064
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa View Post
PSA for the uninitiated: "great electric guitar tone" isn't necessarily about massive amounts of input gain and/or power-amp distortion, whatever the listening level. I've heard the combination you cite with a dual-pickup Gibson Johnny Smith, and IME it was/is the Holy Grail of jazz-guitar tone since Ampeg discontinued the original blue-check combos in the mid-60's: sweet, smooth, and rich beyond belief, with loads of dynamic range and clean headroom for a typical studio/club/small-to-medium house gig - the classic "tone you could eat with a spoon" that every mainstream jazz player strives for - and only the near-Twin Reverb weight keeps me from duplicating it in a reissue version (thankfully my Bugera V22, with its Eminence Swamp Thang and upgraded tubes, covers the same ground). FYI Fender recently issued a handwired '64 Deluxe Reverb RI - not cheap at $2500 street, but about what you'd pay for a dead-mint original with papers; good news is that you don't have to sweat the time/expense of replacing long-since worn-out components, and you've got a warranty to fall back on...
Very true.

The whole point of the D120 in my P2P 1965 DR is to get exactly that smooth tone you've referenced, using either a tele or a jazz box.....but that magnificent speaker works in concert with a slightly lower-gain tube in v1 and v2 - a 5751, with gain-factor of 70, vs a 12AX7/ECC83 with gain factor of 100 - and is biased to reduce power-tube breakup.

Set up like that, the amp can gets to about 6+ or more on the volume dial before clipping - and it's quite loud.

The stock reissues work similarly - reducing gain of v1 and v2 and adding a speaker less prone to breakup (neos work for this, IMHO) pushes the breakup point higher.

Out of the box, though, with 12AX7s in v1 and v2, and an Oxford (or Jensen, in the newer reissues) as the speaker, they start to break up (albeit in a pleasing way) about 4 on the volume dial.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 09-11-2018, 08:26 PM
alnico5 alnico5 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 1,110
Default

My experience with Fender amps: 1) silver Super Reverb circa 1970. 2) silver Twin Reverb circa 1972. 3)1966 Deluxe Reverb purchased some years ago. 3) DRRI, 2010. (All sold except DRRI)

Can I remember exactly what my amps sounded like decades ago? No. They all sounded like Fender amps . I do think my DRRI sounds better than I remember my 1966 Deluxe sounding. I attribute most of the difference to the speaker in the DRRI. I don't think hand wired circuits make electrons behave differently than they do on a PCB board.

If an amp sounds, then it sound good!
__________________
I don't have a bunch of guitars because they all sound just like me.

1984 Carvin LB-40 bass
1986 Carvin DC-125 two humbucker
1996 Taylor 412
La Patrie Concert
2012 American Standard Telecaster
1981 Carvin DC 100
Harley Benton LP JR DC
Bushman Delta Frost & Suzuki harmonicas
Artley flute
Six-plus decade old vocal apparatus
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 09-11-2018, 10:13 PM
rwmct rwmct is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,593
Default

I have the 65 Princeton Reverb Reissue. I am no amp expert, but I like it. I play it with a mid 90s Mexican Tele.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 09-12-2018, 06:41 AM
redir redir is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Mountains of Virginia
Posts: 7,657
Default

I love my '72 Twin which I have had since 1990 but if I was gonna get a new Fender it would be a reissue. So far I've only had the usual problems, recapp, re-tube, clean pots and so on. But an old amp is well, old. And you are likely to have problems with it. Get a reissue today and it might just last nearly 50 years like mine so far has.

If they are indeed built to the same specs then they will sound the same regardless of point to point (bs hype) or PCB. It's possible though that you may hear differences in the vintage one and consider it to 'sound' better because the old one has leaky caps and a bad power supply.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 09-12-2018, 07:41 AM
davidd davidd is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,729
Default

Here is a good article from Tone Report discussing the pros and cons. I think it basically agrees with what has been stated here. Well thought out PTP amps are great and well thought out PCB amps are great. It all depends on the builder. My preference is PTP because a good buy on a vintage Fender PTP amp that has been well maintained will keep its value and probably increase, I don't see this with most PCB amps. I hate to lose money when I sell equipment.
__________________
1990 Martin D16-M
Gibson J45
Eastman E8D-TC
Pono 0000-30DC
Yamaha FSX5, LS16, FG830, FSX700SC
Epiphone EF500-RAN
2001 Gibson '58 Reissue LP
2005, 2007 Gibson '60 Reissue LP Special (Red&TV Yel)
1972 Yamaha SG1500, 1978 LP500
Tele's and Strats
1969,1978 Princeton Reverb
1972 Deluxe Reverb
Epiphone Sheraton, Riviera
DeArmond T400
Ibanez AS73
Quilter Superblock US[/I]
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 09-12-2018, 08:05 AM
stevecuss stevecuss is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Front Range, Colorado
Posts: 1,362
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Womack View Post
The latest round of reissues are pretty darn good. I've got the '65 Deluxe and the '68 Custom Princeton. The Deluxe is really very much like the originals. When it came out it was universally praised. Despite its Silverface cosmetics, the Custom Prince has a tweaked circuit that sounds more like a Blackface Bassman preamp into a tweed power amp. The straight Blackface '65 Reissue Prince is very close to the originals. My review of the '68 Custom Prince is HERE.




Bob
I have a home made Marshall Plexi amp and I keep telling myself I need a Fender Clean amp to complement it. Top of my list is that Princeton '68 Reissue. It looks like a killer amp in a number of ways and it doesn't help my cause that there is used one on my local Craigslist right now for a very nice price.
__________________
Steve
Mcilroy A25c (Cedar, English Walnut) with Schatten HFN (custom MiSi Crystal Jack Preamp, putty install.)
Maton 75th Anniversary OM
50th Anniversary Fender Am Std Strat.
Gretsch 6120 Nashville Players in Blue.
Line 6 Helix.

If I played as much as I read threads, I'd be a pro....
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Electric Guitars

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=