LUTHIERS: Question about Bolt-on mortise and tenon neck joint

[Trevor Gore]

Originally Posted by Tony Done

I've been wondering how many makers use fully bolt-on necks. having seen a lot of low neck angles over the years, it one of my big plus factors. Now I'm up to four, you, Bourgeois, Taylor and Smallman. Can you name any more for me?

Well, here's a fully bolt on neck that I do. Works for both SS and classical



Looks like this assembled:



I also do an adjustable neck:



(Hard to tell, though! )

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by SteveS

The major consideration is the force putting the neck in rotation about the body. Glue would not hold up well to that force, but bolts handle that load easily. A dove tail joint is glued in place, but the glue does almost nothing in that joint...

Just to muddy the waters further...

I use a dovetail joint that is not glued, but for the underside of the fingerboard to the top. The dovetail is prevented from sliding apart by a single wood screw. I've used that for close to 30 years without incident. I've yet to do a neck reset on one of these, which would be the same process as for any other dovetail joint, but without the need to steam the joint apart.

It seems pretty clear to me, however, that the future of guitar making is an adjustable joint. The current best designs appear to be a bolted mortise and tenon with a floating extension. Of course they are not glued to the body.

[SteveS]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

.........It seems pretty clear to me, however, that the future of guitar making is an adjustable joint...

Have you made one? I am so happy with the result. I never want to make another neck that is not adjustable. Let me know if you need to bounce some ideas around.

BTW - I love your work!

[SteveS]

Originally Posted by Tony Done

..... but do you really get no loss on the high frets with a floating extension?.....

As long as the neck is well supported with good materials, there is no loss. I use carbon fiber rods that run from above the nut to near the 20th fret and of course what ever neck wood continues under the fret board extension. An early design was not well supported under the fret board extension and I did notice a loss. That neck became firewood, but it was a great learning experience.

[McCawber]

I'm not an experienced luthier but I have built a couple of guitars with traditional dovetail joints. The simplicity of an M&T joint appeals to me - especially if it doesn't need to be glued. I've disassembled a couple of Martin M&T joints which did require steam which made me think it was a glued in joint.

A quick look at the Stewmac kit instructions for their M&T joints indicates they are not requiring glue.

Dang, you can learn something every day if you're not careful!

[Tony Done]

Originally Posted by Trevor Gore

Well, here's a fully bolt on neck that I do. Works for both SS and classical



I also do an adjustable neck:



(Hard to tell, though! )

Thanks for the pics. Your first one looks like the Bourgeois version, two heel bolts and two tranverse extension bolts. Mine started sounding a bit dull a couple of weeks ago, and I discovered that one of the extension bolts needed tightening. It improved the tone no end.

I didn't realise until recently that Greg Smallman uses an adjustable neck joint with only two bolts on his classicals. I imagine it is easier to do on his very heavy body design.

[Trevor Gore]

Originally Posted by Tony Done

Your first one looks like the Bourgeois version...

Only superficially. The neck wood on mine is solid through the fretboard extension and I bolt into an embedded bar in the heel rather than the threaded inserts. Substantially stiffer, I would imagine.

It's the tilt necks on the classical guitars that were a revelation to me. Mine are adjustable using a spin wheel through the sound hole, so no tools are required to make an adjustment any time. It's almost like a volume control - just wind the action up when you want to play loud and down when you want to do some low volume practicing. I use it a lot more than I imagined I would, just expecting to set once and forget. Funny how I never needed one until I had one!

[Jim.S]

Still keeping the guts of that tilt neck of yours under your hat Trevor?

Tony, I guess Greg Smallman's is referred to as a "bolt on" but it doesn't really bolt on, He uses one bolt as the tilt adjustment and the second bolt is just a retainer to stop the neck from falling off when you take the strings off. It is the hinge and the strings that hold the neck in its playing position (at least that is how I see it as Greg doesn't publish much)

I only use one bolt for mine, no glue and no heel. Well for the last one it was one bolt (as well as 9 screws), maybe a bit too complicated but it is working well at least. I have changed it on the one I am on now to the same adjuster as Greg uses but I still have that frankenstienesque hinge thing going on. A pic of the last one.



Jim

[Trevor Gore]

Originally Posted by Jim.S

Still keeping the guts of that tilt neck of yours under your hat Trevor?

Don't you think I spilled enough guts already?

[Jim.S]

The answer is yes but that doesn't help my curiosity.

Jim

[KevinLPederson]

My neck joint is fully adjustable too. Other than the market dictating differently, I wouldn't build another guitar without one. Even if someone doesn't want my adjustable saddles/bridge, I can still set the action with a slot style saddle at the bridge.

But the ultimate in fine tuning can be made with neck adjustments and intonation adjustments on my guitar(s). . I can really dial in my intonation now, even after multiple action changes. Its really awesome. Of course, everytime you change the action it will change the intonation. I learned this from setting up hundreds of electrics. They get played a lot up higher on the fretboard, so its very noticeable. And as more and more players are playing up higher on necks now, I wanted to figure a way on how to make these adjustments more accurately.









Kevin.

[RonaldP]

Hello;
I'm a retired person wanting to take up the guitar. I've been researching and found an older Yamaha FG335 that sounds very good to me but has a crack at the body/neck joint. I can see some of the finish has been cracked and fallen out right at the join. What could this mean to me? Leave it alone, a neck reset, fill in the crack? Don't buy it? Appreciate any opinions. Thanks, Ron

[RonaldP]

I may have put this question in the wrong place???
Ron

[arie]

-a picture or pictures if possible, is always helpful.

-i would suggest starting a new thread. it will get your issue more specific attention and you'll be helped out a bit quicker.

good luck!