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  #31  
Old 01-23-2021, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by SprintBob View Post

I need to figure how to do this on Reaper. I have plenty of takes where I have a few high or low notes that I would like to “treat” but instead I trash the recording and try again. That can be time consuming (and tiring at times).
Like anything it's a matter of just going through the procedure. In the long run it is an editing technique that is very useful especially if you have an otherwise good take and if the issue is not too severe.

Again I don't use Reaper but I did try the free version a few years ago but do not remember the exact method, BUT,,,,,being a visual learner I found Kenny Gioia's extensive free video's on Reaper very informative. And I am guessing Reaper can facilitate it and I would think Gioia would have a video on volume automation ?

What the technique basically involves Is:
1 # first get the mix volume where you want it for most of track before you try to deal with the problem spots, so you deal with bad notes only with automation volume changes .... And you won't have have to keep going back and forth adjusting the volume for the rest of track
#2 listening and deciding what may need to be raised or lowered
#3 in the edit window zooming on on that section of the waveform with the issue (visually is either a tall transient in the wave form or an obvious contracted (shorter vertically) section.
#4 highlighting the section with the issue and using what amounts to a cut/separation in the timeline for just that section or just the volume lane line for the track, and then there should be some way to change the level for just that portion of the waveform (with out effecting the rest of the entire track).

What doing this does is, puts the track into volume automation. (note that once you do this) if you later decide to make a change in the entire tracks volume,,, you will have to make that change by changing it the volume automation lane or section,, because if try to just move the tracks fader on mixer channel like when there is no automation ,,,, it will simply revert to back what the last automation volume level was. (at least that is how Pro Tools works with automation)
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Last edited by KevWind; 01-23-2021 at 08:18 AM.
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  #32  
Old 01-23-2021, 08:44 AM
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Ok relating to my post above here is a K Gioia video that demonstrates how to do volume automation in Reaper... I would suggest using the method he sets up in Reaper with the custom "actions" as it will make doing volume automation a very quick and easy task.

On an aside note the video clearly shows the difference of using Reaper compared to other DAWS ::: In Reaper it involves the user having to create custom actions and assigning keyboard shortcuts to get Reaper functioning like other DAWs do automatically (which I guess has both plus'es and minus'es ) .. But Once set up, it will be just a couple custom keystrokes to facilitate

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  #33  
Old 01-23-2021, 11:08 AM
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For any interested . Rather than distract this thread any more I just posted a quick "down an dirty" Video on Automation work flow in a new thread here. https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=604782
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  #34  
Old 01-23-2021, 01:56 PM
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[QUOTE=rick-slo;6612326]
Quote:
Originally Posted by SprintBob View Post

Regarding using a volume envelope you need to be aware that when you increase or decrease the volume of a particular note at a
particular time in the recording you will be doing the same with the other notes that were already ringing out on the guitar (even
true with a equalizer envelope due to all the overtones going on). Probably more noticeable (going on for a longer time) when using
a reverb. Listen carefully to tell whether that becomes an issue.
Great point. Yeah, the busier your part the more you have to back up and find the beginning of all the sustained notes or itís going to get pretty weird fast. Come to think of it I've done more of this when flatpicking fiddle tunes, even in a duo where we're in separate tracks with a lot of bleed, if itís mostly single note lines it's more than fair game And for me, most of the time it's borderline subliminal with less than one db tweak -though if it's a cool harmonic or something I might push the bounds of good taste and crank it up pretty far for a youtube video or social media post..
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Old 01-23-2021, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by min7b5 View Post

Great point. Yeah, the busier your part the more you have to back up and find the beginning of all the sustained notes or it’s going to get pretty weird fast. Come to think of it I've done more of this when flatpicking fiddle tunes, even in a duo where we're in separate tracks with a lot of bleed, if it’s mostly single note lines it's more than fair game And for me, most of the time it's borderline subliminal with less than one db tweak -though if it's a cool harmonic or something I might push the bounds of good taste and crank it up pretty far for a youtube video or social media post..
Ya actually you don't want to use the Reaper volume envelope feature at all, to do what we have been discussing, i. e. bringing single notes up or down in level/volume. Volume envelops are better suited to ramp up into and down down out of, longer sections of notes like up to a chorus etc. ,,,, not to correct individual notes . You want to do what Kenny Gioia is doing in the video I posted at about the 1:17 mark
What that does is more accurately effect only the selected note/s, and not any adjacent notes that you don't want to effect, so nothing gets weird regardless of how busy the tune is (unless of course you overdo the corrections ) and like a car on snow/ice you could end up in the ditch
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Last edited by KevWind; 01-23-2021 at 05:59 PM.
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  #36  
Old 01-23-2021, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
Regarding using a volume envelope you need to be aware that when you increase or decrease the volume of a particular note at a
particular time in the recording you will be doing the same with the other notes that were already ringing out on the guitar

That's one of the big challenges with any massaging of solo guitar. It's often the same issue with edits. You think you're splicing between two notes, but some other note that's ringing out in either the original and/or the edit makes the edit obvious. Sometimes these techniques work, sometimes they don't... You get away with a lot more in a band mix, but naked solo guitar, it's hard to hide all the evidence of manipulation of any kind.
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Old 01-24-2021, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
That's one of the big challenges with any massaging of solo guitar. It's often the same issue with edits. You think you're splicing between two notes, but some other note that's ringing out in either the original and/or the edit makes the edit obvious. Sometimes these techniques work, sometimes they don't... You get away with a lot more in a band mix, but naked solo guitar, it's hard to hide all the evidence of manipulation of any kind.
Interesting,, it does make sense that any even slight volume changes would be noticeable in a solo instrument recording. And it is true that sometimes very slight changes even of a db, maybe less, can be noticed sometimes be detected depending on the situation.

So I am wondering if there might not be two more contributing factors (or simply stated another way) to this idea of being more noticeable in a solo recording concept.
#1 That in a solo recording that the listener would naturally be more focused on the specific nuance's in the technique of the player. Given that is what really makes of breaks the solo performance. As opposed to say the listeners focus being split on a song with a guitar and vocal and being focused as much or more on the meaning of the lyrics..... Or say in multi instrumental, on the overall feel of the combination, or the sum of the parts, as opposed to the individual parts ?

#2 The fact that often we all, as the artists/recordists, tend notice very slight performance mistakes or anomalies, that may go overlooked by the listing audience even in a solo ?
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  #38  
Old 01-24-2021, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Interesting,, it does make sense that any even slight volume changes would be noticeable in a solo instrument recording. And it is true that sometimes very slight changes even of a db, maybe less, can be noticed sometimes be detected depending on the situation.
See my post #30.

The guitar being a polyphonic instrument it is a common situation that there are other notes (usually notes played earlier in time that are on their way to fading out)
that are ringing right along with the target note you are trying to change the volume of. Change the volume of the target note and you change the volume of the other
notes. Than can sound noticeably strange to the listener. Volume change of a frequency band within an automated equalizer plugin may be better focused but is not
transparent due to the complexity of note overtones.

Yes, usually a casual listener would not notice this stuff (it usually goes by so fast) but if you are the one in the DAW changing things around you probably will notice.
It's a judgement call in weighing the pros and cons. Personally I make focal volume edits in a recording quite sparingly if at all.
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  #39  
Old 01-24-2021, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
See my post #30.

The guitar being a polyphonic instrument it is a common situation that there are other notes (usually notes played earlier in time that are on their way to fading out)
that are ringing right along with the target note you are trying to change the volume of. Change the volume of the target note and you change the volume of the other
notes.
I agree with Rick - the issue is the polyphonic nature of the instrument. You'd have the same issue with a piano, or even a stereo orchestra recording. Adjusting the volume of a trombone note risks hearing the volume go up on sustained violins, etc.

There is certainly an issue of degree. Things that are painfully obvious with my head between my studio monitors sometimes aren't even noticeable at all over my home stereo or in my car. A casual listener isn't likely to notice a bad edit if it's background music playing in a cafe. But we all record music in the hope (or fear? :-) ) that someone's actually going to listen to it closely over a good sound system, however unlikely that may be!
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