Not your average Brazilian RW for the Montreal Guitar Show

[Tim McKnight]

Originally Posted by Go4aRyd

...can you compare Pauduk and Osage Orange musical and tone characteristics? Both seem to be very musical build woods.

Hi Ryd,

Both woods are very low damping meaning they absorb very little vibration energy. Padauk is lighter and less dense then Osage if you are considering mechanical properties. Padauk's density would be more comparable to the lighter tan, orange and lower density BRW's while Osage's slightly heavier density would be more comparable to the darker brown, black, purple and denser BRWs. Both are so closely matched tonally it would come down to aesthetics choosing one over another.

FWIW, I have broken two sets of Padauk during the side bending process and have never broken a set of Osage. I have read reports of the Argentine Osage being more prone to breaking during bending but I have never had any troubles with either American or Argentine Osage. Our guitars, in these two threads, were built with American Osage.

I shy away from any Osage with dark brown stripes or veins because I have seen it have a propensity to split along those brown vein lines. Most Osage grain is so interlocked that its very difficult to split and that may be why its known for being very stable wood? Its also highly resilient and may be why the Native American Indians prized it for bow making. You can bend a thin board in half and it will spring back and not break. Its quite unique wood.

[Tim McKnight]

Originally Posted by Simon Fay

Beautiful guitars and really nice work on those bridges!!!

Thanks Simon. It was a challenge making these since this was my first exposure to pin less bridges. As a mechanical engineer, I never thought I would use a pin less bridge because of the shallower string break angle and the way the bridge glue joint is constantly in shear. However, my "shadow" feature allows for a slightly larger increase of the glue surface foot print, without a significant increase in mass, which is my approach to address the glue shear line.

After hearing the results of these two guitars its difficult for me to surmise that a pin less bridge's shallower string break angle has a discernible effect on the downward force imparted to the saddle than a conventional pin type bridge. I was quite surprised by the tonal results and will likely build more guitars with this style of pin less bridge if requested to.

[Trevor M]

Hi Tim,

Your comment at the begging reminds me of one of the few 'racial stereotyping' jokes I have heard that is complimentary.

Q. How do you get 50 Canadians into a mini (small car)?

A. Ask them nicely..

Perhaps the bugs are the same. They just ask them nicely to go away..

Love the guitar and rosette.

[Mary]

Harv, maybe you will be the only to take notice of all those mistakes on this osage.

If anyone else notices I will wait until you turn your head and slip it onto your table.


Maybe we can pretend it's not ours.

[Alan Carruth]

Tim McKnight wrote:
"After hearing the results of these two guitars its difficult for me to surmise that a pin less bridge's shallower string break angle has a discernible effect on the downward force imparted to the saddle than a conventional pin type bridge. I was quite surprised by the tonal results and will likely build more guitars with this style of pin less bridge if requested to."

A student and I have spent a bunch of time over the past year or so on a project to determine whether break angle or string height off the top is more important in determining tone. In a careful listening test, using recordings of the same guitar with different setups, we found that people could not reliably distinguish a difference in tone when the break angle was changed from about 25 degree to a barely adequate 6 degrees, but most listeners could hear the difference when we raised the string height off the top from 11mm (on a classical guitar) to 18mm (don't try this at home!). We did a bunch of work to figure out what they were hearing, and, as usual, it turns out to be complicated. We're planning on publishing the results at some point. For the moment, I'd say that, so long as you've got enough break angle to avoid obvious problems, it should be 'enough'. I'll note, too, that archtop guitars get away with low break angles; Benedetto specifies a six degree break in his book.

I've built with both Padauk and Osage, and agree with Tim that they are both decent substitutes for BRW tonally. Padauk does indeed tend to split, particularly when well quartered: in that respect it's like redwood. Be sure to count in the expense of filler when you use it, too. Osage is very split resistant, but, paradoxically, chippy. Score the sides before you rout the binding rabbets.

[cotten]

Originally Posted by harvl

... the bridge seems to be a bit crooked... the frets are a bit off... the tuners are not aligned... the soundhole is slightly off center and the body is skewed to one side...

Let that be a lesson to you, Harv. NEVER leave a perfectly nice guitar in a hot car! Things can melt and slip into all kinds of unusual shapes and places! Of course, I know that you would never even OWN a hot car. You pay for yours, don't you?

I like the creativity here, Tim and Mary! Very nice looking - can't wait to hear its voice!

cotten

[Dru Edwards]

That's a stunning guitar Tim! Definitely not you average guitar with the placement of the sound hole.

Good luck at the Montreal Show!

[fitness1]

I don't know about that Osage Orange stuff......it may be all hype

[Mary]

Originally Posted by fitness1

I don't know about that Osage Orange stuff......it may be all hype

Hey, Todd.

Gimme a chance to put your McKnight Osage Orange guitar in a hot car like Cotten is talking about. Let's see if yours will get all whopper jawed like this one is.

This guitar was fun for me to design, but I have learned more about Osage Oranges than I really needed to know. After it was freshly cut I did a taste test. I imagine there is a great deal of health value in there, but I sure wouldn't want to live with it as a steady diet. Not to mention the goo involved. Even after it dried a few weeks it was still a sticky mess to deal with. It sure was pretty though. Mimicking it as a rosette was a challenge, but I liked the way it looked in the natural stage.

[dchristo]

WOW, that is a beautiful guitar

[fitness1]

Originally Posted by Mary

Hey, Todd.

Gimme a chance to put your McKnight Osage Orange guitar in a hot car like Cotten is talking about. Let's see if yours will get all whopper jawed like this one is.

.

I think I'll avoid the "whopper jawed" thing.....I think the French Polish might not fare so well in that "test"

[Tony_in_NYC]

To quote Ralph Cramdon,"humenahumenahumena...."
That's nice!