Should I force myself to do "economical" fingering?

[KarlK]

OK, here's the deal...I have been working on the Noel Gallagher song "Talk Tonight." (As an aside, the genesis of the song is interesting -- it was "B" side to an 1994 Oasis single, written by Noel after he walked out on the band in LA, flew to San Francisco to meet a lady he knew, who according to accounts, "talked him off the ledge.")

It maybe one of the great B sides in the history of pop music.

Noel continues to do the song in his acoustic sets to this day. Go here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o75hCEfdZsg

and start at 4:05 to hear the tune.

It's a simple song -- Emin7, Asus7, Cadd9, Gadd9, Asus7 for the verse,
Chorus is Cadd9, Gadd9, D/Dsus4, Emin7.

Gallagher does the entire song in the first position. And though accompanist Gem Archer does a bridge lead part on the song on his electric Gibson ES355 -- he too plays it in the first position throughout. (By the way Archer's flat picking is just phenomenal -- listen to how he segues from the lead into the third verse. Crisp, clear, quasi-acoustic playing).

Gallagher's fingering is very economical. For example his third finger stays on the 3rd fret of the B string throughout (to achieve the 7th and 9th chordal configurations) - only his index finger and middle fingers move, and his pinky is only involved when does the Dsus4 on the chorus. The fingering makes total sense -- but I struggle with it.

Why? I am used to forming open position G variations with a 2-3-4 configuration -- he uses 1-2-3. I use 2-3-4 on Cadd9 he uses -- yep, you guessed it --1-2-3.

I can make the song work with my fingering, but chord switches are more "hazardous" and prone to missing the fretting.

So the question is -- should a player adapt his playing to the fingering that makes most economical sense? Or try to work the song as smoothly as he can with the "uneconomical" movements?

[RodB]

Originally Posted by KarlK

...I can make the song work with my fingering, but chord switches are more "hazardous" and prone to missing the fretting.

Doesn't this mean you have answered your own question? If you had to play it tomorrow you would use what you do best, but in the long run finding better ways of putting things together is how we go forward... the road never ends!

[nwsht]

Most economical! Any other way would be lazy I would think. Plus, there are situations in some arrangements that are near impossible unless you do it the most economical way. This should be in the bad habits thread if it isn't already. When I had a semester of classical guitar, economical fingering was the thing I took away from the class. I know it's a drag, and it takes 3 times as long to learn an arrangement, but in the end it forces good habits - which I wish I had more of.

[Bern]

Yeah, of course, an economical way of playing is the ultimate goal, but, there are instances where 'the most economical' way of playing will not have the same musical effect and bring out certain characteristics of the instrument. One should always listen to what each approach within the context of a song has to offer.

[mchalebk]

In my mind, when you are a beginner, it is good to learn a single way to finger each of the basic chords. This makes it simple to make good progress and learn to play songs fairly quickly, which in turn makes playing more fun.

However, after you've been playing for a while and are past the point of no return (meaning you're not on the verge of giving it up any minute now), you should work on versatility and efficiency. What's the best way to finger a chord? The way that is the easiest to transition into and out of. It changes song by song.

RodB said it well. If you need to perform this right now, play it as you know it. However, you will be well served by adapting your fingerings to the specific song and finding the most efficient way to move from chord to chord.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by KarlK

…So the question is -- should a player adapt his playing to the fingering that makes most economical sense? Or try to work the song as smoothly as he can with the "uneconomical" movements?

Hi Karl...

Only if you want to grow your musical ability. That was me joking with you…

One of the final steps in my arranging process is to adjust fingerings, sometimes even relocating where I play passages/inversions on the neck (which strings).

When I arrange a tune, I'm doing them from scratch, so often the fingerings are a bit cludgy till I work them out.

I've been tempted to stop when they are barely good enough (just because I can get them done the first way I tried). Then I argue myself into working them through, and 6 months down the line I'm not even struggling with them and wondering why I even thought of not making them more efficient.

Sometimes I sleep on them, and the next practice session, simpler fingerings just emerge.

[rick-slo]

I'd just do it his way, though I don't know what an Asus7 is (you mean an Em7?).

[mchalebk]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

I'd just do it his way, though I don't know what an Asus7 is (you mean an Em7?).

I assume he means A7sus4. It's a natural chord to fit in with those others.

[JanVigne]

Decades ago I was told the rule was to use as many or as few (available) fingers as is required to play well and in time.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by JanVigne

Decades ago I was told the rule was to use as many or as few (available) fingers as is required to play well and in time.

Hi JV...

As an acoustic fingerstyler (chord melody player) that's not bad advice, but it sounds like the quote attributed to Bach who supposedly said, "Music is just pressing the right key at the right time…"

The more elaborate the arrangement, and depending on the tunings, creative fingerings are a must for varied and more elaborate arrangements to flow musically. I get uneasy watching a player struggle to keep up with his/her arrangement. Sometimes I just have to close my eyes...especially when I know it doesn't have to be such a struggle.

I created a Dropped D fingerstyle version of the "The Entertainer" (Scott Joplin) which was twisting my fingers and brains. I could get-there in time (barely) but it felt like like I was wrestling with the neck, not playing the song. And it was awkward to accomplish too.

The notes were secure, and the arrangement settled, but I decided to overhaul it and see what I could do to alleviate the issues. In about 3 practice sessions I overhauled the problem passages by relocating certain notes (some melody, harmony, and bass notes) to other strings.

I also decided to rework one passage so I had to cross a finger over another to hit one note, instead of repositioning the entire voicing on two sequential chords, and wow it worked so much better. The nice thing about guitars - many notes can be situated several places on the fingerboard and still be the same notes to the ears.

And contrary to popular opinion, fingerings do not get harder as you play higher on the fingerboard.

After I reworked it, I looked on YouTube and found a version by Chet Atkins, and he did the same awkward looking reachover on his arrangement too. Not sure that is the validation one requires, but it eased my mind.

I've amended a couple more fingerings for ease over the years. What began as a wrestling match with the neck became a dance with the music. I think that's the goal of efficient fingerings.

[JanVigne]

"I've amended a couple more fingerings for ease over the years. What began as a wrestling match with the neck became a dance with the music. I think that's the goal of efficient fingerings."



I wouldn't disagree at all, Larry. However, as I read your post I can only think the best advice is still to use the greatest or fewest number of fingers/strings required to play well and in time. If you're twisting your fingers around to reach a particular fingering, then you may be using the correct number of fingers for that number of strings but you're probably not playing as well as you could if you simplified your technique. With minor exceptions, playing guitar should not be a work out IMO. Making it as easy on yourself while not cheating your audience is the better advice in most cases.

I know it was/is popular to take works such as Joplin's piano rags and move them to another instrument, I sometimes wonder about the why of such things. Like blazing fast flat picking in fiddle tune Bluegrass, is it all that necessary just to play a song with emotion? Are you doing so to create a difficult piece of music to play on another instrument? Are you doing so because you hear something which needs to be expressed on another instrument? If it comes down to playing it that way just because, then I'm not so sure that's a valid reason.

Of course, I'm a fairly lazy player and working myself into a friz isn't why I play guitar. Lots of people do and that's fine. I'm not criticizing, just sometimes asking, "Why?" If it provides you an exercise in thinking out the process, that's a valid reason. if it provides you a challenge you just must address, that's OK too, I suppose.

But you have given a very difficult example of a song played on guitar. Most of us won't ever feel the need to approach the sort of technique which twists our fingers around like pretzels.

Still from what you've posted, without hearing and seeing you play it - and I have no doubt I would be impressed, I'm still thinking the "laziest" way to play is typically the best way to play well and in time. Most rules though have notable exceptions.

[JanVigne]

I suppose though, we should address the op's real question;

"I can make the song work with my fingering, but chord switches are more 'hazardous' and prone to missing the fretting.

So the question is -- should a player adapt his playing to the fingering that makes most economical sense? Or try to work the song as smoothly as he can with the 'uneconomical' movements?"




As I see it, the question is, first, should you ape the fingerings of another player? Not in my opinion. You should be comfortable with what you are capable of playing. If you're not, mimicing the technique of a more advanced player won't necessarily make you a better player. Figuring out how you can best play the song and then taking the time and making the effort to develop a technique which suits you, your instrument and the song is the better solution IMO. Some songs as played by highly skilled and talented players are simply going to be above the level of a large number of players. "Know your limits" is also what I was told decades ago. It's not always beneficial to push yourself to play so far above your skill level that you cannot make the song enjoyable for a listener - even if that listener is just you.

Second, should you use or not use a fingering set up which leads to misplayed notes? No, again. If missing the frets and muffing the chord is someone's idea of making the song "work", then, may I please have you card so I can remember not to make you the first person I'll pay to hear. So, I suppose I'm a little confused by how the op feels the song "works" when notes are misplayed.

[KarlK]

Originally Posted by JanVigne

As I see it, the question is, first, should you ape the fingerings of another player? Not in my opinion. You should be comfortable with what you are capable of playing. If you're not, mimicing the technique of a more advanced player won't necessarily make you a better player. Figuring out how you can best play the song and then taking the time and making the effort to develop a technique which suits you, your instrument and the song is the better solution IMO. Some songs as played by highly skilled and talented players are simply going to be above the level of a large number of players. "Know your limits" is also what I was told decades ago. It's not always beneficial to push yourself to play so far above your skill level that you cannot make the song enjoyable for a listener - even if that listener is just you.

Been a while since this thread, but I have wanted to respond to this.

First, Gallagher here is anything but an advanced player. The chords and strumming for this are simple.

In addition, I have worked on the song so that I use some of his economical fingering, while using other fingering that I am more comfortable with.

Originally Posted by JanVigne

Second, should you use or not use a fingering set up which leads to misplayed notes? No, again. If missing the frets and muffing the chord is someone's idea of making the song "work", then, may I please have you card so I can remember not to make you the first person I'll pay to hear. So, I suppose I'm a little confused by how the op feels the song "works" when notes are misplayed.

My point here was that as I watched him play, I understood why he used that economical fingering -- clearly it made transitions simpler and less prone to mistakes. But, ironically, for me learning the song, it was harder; those finger positionings were uncomfortable and awkward for me. However, my uneconomical moves, with which I was MORE comfortable, were, given my early stage of the learning the song, more prone to mistakes BY VIRTUE of their lack of economy. I have worked my way around that now and it sounds OK.

Finally, I probably have to pay YOU to listen to ME. I am just a guy -- some might say a hack -- trying to get better.

[JanVigne]

"However, my uneconomical moves, with which I was MORE comfortable, were, given my early stage of the learning the song, more prone to mistakes BY VIRTUE of their lack of economy. I have worked my way around that now and it sounds OK."






I seldom play difficult arrangements, but when I do, I prefer the easiest way possible.

Stay lazy, my friend.


The Most Uninteresting Guitar Player in the World