Lighter tuners

[thingthatisdone]

I'm thinking of replacing the heavy, sealed J-45 Standard tuners with Waverlys. I was wondering if anyone had insight as to how this will impact the tone. My initial thought is that sustain will probably diminish.

[Brent Hahn]

The only reason I'd replace big, overbuilt tuners is if they cause neck dive.

And those original open tuners back in the day were like old nuts and bolts -- they were made of really hard steel and their threads held an edge forever. These new Waverlys don't seem like that to me.

[Wade Hampton]

There are those who claim that vintage-style open gear tuners will change the sound when used to replace heavier sealed gear tuners like Grover Rotomatics - for the better, of course! But in my experience there probably won’t be an audible difference.


whm

[Paddy1951]

You did not mention which tuners are currently are on your J45. I am guessing Grover Rotomatics. If I were you, I would replace them with a new set of Rotomatics or if they are mounted with the single screw at 6 o'clock, you could go to the medium Gotoh 510s. These are a very nice upgrade without many, if any alterations necessary.

I am there with Wade. I have NEVER seen any science behind the notion that Waverly style tuners improve the sound of your guitar. It's the sort of thing that people believe what they want to believe.

That said, it is your guitar. Please yourself. Just know that Waverly tuners will cost you quite a bit, with no evidence that they give you better sound.

[rokdog49]

I replaced the chrome tuning buttons on my J45 with Tortoise ones and it sounds like angels singing now.

[tippy5]

I have used smaller button tuners on a few choice guitars. Upgrading tuning machines I have done many times, especially on electrics.

But my 90's J45 I will never take off the large Grover Rotomatics. I tried a bone saddle. I gasped and fumbled for the stock micarta saddle. Relieved that the tone came back.

Mass could come into play on this heavy (just under 5 lb ) J 45. I wish i could give you a data point as to some snakewood mini buttons but i am reluctant to modify this one ever again.

[doctorc]

If it ain't broke I wouldn't fix it. I'd have a good tech check your setup first and maybe consider a better saddle or nut and definitely experiment with strings.
IF you are going to change however I'd recommend the new Schaller Grand Tuner machine heads. VERY FINE . Permanently sealed, 24 carat gold plated for no corrosion and never need lubrication. I think I saw some of Bruce Sexauer's guitar's with them.
I'm currently having a new build done and will use them. I also have a slot head guitar that the builder used Scherlters. The are very Swiss made and very beautiful, but probably too modern a vibe for your guitar.

[vindibona1]

In a nutshell, more mass = more beef in the tone. Sometimes a good thing, sometimes not. If you notice, in the Strat world the guitar that get that real old vintage Strat sound have lighter weight vintage split-shaft tuners. The Strats that have modern standard tuners often have a more difficult time of getting that vintage sound.

In a J-45 I wouldn't fix what isn't broken. But beside that, I dislike the feel and operation of Waverly tuners and will take sealed Grover Rotos or Taylor style or Gotoh tuners over Waverlys any day of the week.

[Nymuso]

I remember twenty or so years ago the hot item was a brass plate that was fitted to the back of your headstock to increase mass and therefore sustain. Not sure if it worked or not because I didn't get sucked in. But I'm thinking this Waverly fad too, shall pass, so I'll hold on to my Grovers - just in case there is something to that mass/sustain thing.

[Wade Hampton]

Originally Posted by vindibona1

In a nutshell, more mass = more beef in the tone. Sometimes a good thing, sometimes not. If you notice, in the Strat world the guitar that get that real old vintage Strat sound have lighter weight vintage split-shaft tuners. The Strats that have modern standard tuners often have a more difficult time of getting that vintage sound.

There's definitely a difference in the tone with solidbody electric guitars when lightweight tuners are replaced with heavier ones, or vice versa. The same thing with mandolins, where the before and after differences are like night and day.

But in a full-sized steel string acoustic guitar, the sealed gear tuners don't contribute enough additional mass to make an audible difference most of the time. Yes, it's theoretically possible, but I've never witnessed it, and I've done before and after comparisons in both directions.

On good flamenco guitars, those instruments are so lightly built that putting Grover Rotomatics on them would undoubtedly have an impact on the sound, and probably one you wouldn't want. (Which is why flamenco guitars continue to be built with wooden friction pegs, the lightest tuning pegs you can possibly get.)

But an observable before and after tonal change would be quite unlikely on a J-45.

What I routinely do with sealed gear tuners is swap out the stock metal buttons for lightweight aftermarket wooden or high grade plastic buttons, like the tortoiseshell plastic buttons Jamie (rokdog) recently put on his J-45:

˙˙˙

Those cut the weight to a noticeable degree, and dress up the headstock a little bit while they're at it.

Vindibona concluded:

Originally Posted by vindibona1

In a J-45 I wouldn't fix what isn't broken. But beside that, I dislike the feel and operation of Waverly tuners and will take sealed Grover Rotos or Taylor style or Gotoh tuners over Waverlys any day of the week.

Well, a lot of this is personal preference. I'm not much of a fan of vintage style open gear tuners, preferring the greater accuracy of good sealed gear tuners like Gotoh 510's, but on some instruments the vintage look is appropriate. Plus, a substantial percentage of folks who play guitar just plain like 'em, which is why so many guitars come with them these days.

No harm in that. Choose whatever works for you.


Wade Hampton Miller

[bufflehead]

Originally Posted by rokdog49

I replaced the chrome tuning buttons on my J45 with Tortoise ones and it sounds like angels singing now.

I had to repost this just because I had to.

[Misifus]

Wade, I replaced the metal knobs on the Gotoh 510s with ebony ones. They are much lighter, and I like the look. However, I cannot detect any difference in tone. This is a big, heavy guitar - a Kinscherff High Noon in brazilian. Weighs about 6.5lbs. I guess the change in mass by swapping tuner buttons was just not significant.

[rokdog49]

Originally Posted by bufflehead

I had to repost this just because I had to.

I understand.

[Wade Hampton]

Raf wrote:

Originally Posted by Misifus

Wade, I replaced the metal knobs on the Gotoh 510s with ebony ones. They are much lighter, and I like the look. However, I cannot detect any difference in tone. This is a big, heavy guitar - a Kinscherff High Noon in brazilian. Weighs about 6.5lbs. I guess the change in mass by swapping tuner buttons was just not significant.

Understood. But even on lighter weight steel string guitars it doesn't seem to make an audible difference. As I mentioned, I routinely swap out tuner buttons for lighter weight aftermarket buttons, and even on my significantly smaller Tacoma Papoose travel guitar there wasn't any change in the tone.

These Papooses are quite small, about the size of a tenor ukulele, and tuned a fourth higher than a regular guitar, from A to A:

Tacoma Papoose

That's just an image I grabbed online; mine has pearloid tuner buttons and a large tortoiseshell plastic pickguard to cover up the deep scratches a friend of mine put into the cedar top when he used it onstage once for about five songs. (Yes, I remain mildly irked about that, but the damage was done, and I value my friendship with him more than keeping the guitar pristine. I never loaned it to him again, though!)

Anyway, if the tone of a guitar as small and light as a Tacoma Papoose doesn't change when you remove weight from the headstock like that, a full-sized guitar almost certainly won't, either.


Wade Hampton Miller

[McShepherd]

I didn't spring for the Waverlies, but I did replace the Rotos with Grover open backs from Stewmac. It did require drilling a second hole for mounting each tuner (as the rotos only mount on the bottom side).

Aside from the weight change, the gear ratio is a change, so that they fine-tune more than the rotos. Which really means they're a tad more finicky tuning, able to be out-of-tune in smaller increments than before. I have not found them less stable than before, such that I would caution against it, just noting it as a point of practice - maybe more time tuning, but also maybe a more precisely tuned end product.

Of the changes I've made to my J-45 Standard (bone replacements for nut, saddle and pins, passive K&K-style 3-bud SBT for active Baggs UST, cut grooves in the bridge slots to allow for solid instead of grooved pins; and, of course, strings every so often), this has IMO been the most drastic change for the better, in sound trading out a little mud in the mids for an overall greater clarity, and in weight lightening up the headstock in proportion to the fairly light spuce/hog body.

What I did wrong with mine was visual, and it doesn't bother me: I didn't make sure to get washers that would fully cover rings left by the rotos on the face of the headstock. But you may be more finicky about your instrument's appearance up close than I was.