Thoughts on the 3 to 1 miking rule.

[Trevor B.]

My understanding is that this rule says to avoid phase cancellation when more than one mic is used to record a sound source the mikes should be placed 3 times farther apart from each other than the distance they are from the source. So, if the mikes are both 1' away from a sound source (let's say, oh......I dunno, an acoustic guitar, for example) then the mikes should be 3' apart from each other.
I'm interested in whether folks on the forum adhere to this rule and if so, why, or if not, why not?
Thanks,
Trevor

[RustyAxe]

That ratio puts the mics at 90' to each other, optimal for stereo separation. Fine if you can do it.

[ChuckS]

I usually record with a spaced pair setup. I like to get the mics in the range of 20-28" back from the guitar. Spacing between the mics in the range of 16-30". So, basically I don't follow the 3:1 rule. However, I pan the mics hard right and hard left, and since I'm listening in stereo (not collapsing to mono) I don't think it's an issue.

If you like having the mics close to the guitar (6-12") then you might be able to follow the 3:1 rule.

[Trevor B.]

Originally Posted by ChuckS

I usually record with a spaced pair setup. I like to get the mics in the range of 20-28" back from the guitar. Spacing between the mics in the range of 16-30". So, basically I don't follow the 3:1 rule. However, I pan the mics hard right and hard left, but since I'm recording stereo and I'm not collapsing to mono I don't think it's an issue.

If you like having the mics close to the guitar (6-12") then you might be able to follow the 3:1 rule.

Hello Chuck,
Like you I had been recording (all experiments at this stage for me ) with spaced pairs roughly 20" from the 12th fret and the bridge. After reading about the 3 to 1 rule I decided to place my mikes 60" from each other but ran into an insurmountable obstacle or as most people would call it, a wall. So, do I move the mikes closer or ignore the 3 to 1 rule. I realize that, ultimately it's the old trial and error/ experiment with mic placement routine but I find it helpful to read other points of view and hear from people who know more about home recording than I do.

[ChuckS]

Originally Posted by Trevor B.

Hello Chuck,
Like you I had been recording (all experiments at this stage for me ) with spaced pairs roughly 20" from the 12th fret and the bridge. After reading about the 3 to 1 rule I decided to place my mikes 60" from each other but ran into an insurmountable obstacle or as most people would call it, a wall. So, do I move the mikes closer or ignore the 3 to 1 rule. I realize that, ultimately it's the old trial and error/ experiment with mic placement routine but I find it helpful to read other points of view and hear from people who know more about home recording than I do.

What I've picked up from a few on this forum is:
If you pan hard left and hard right and playback in stereo you don't have to be concerned with the phase cancellation;
Use the distance between the mics to get the width of the stereo field that you like.

While close micing can get a good recording, I prefer having the mics back a ways to get more of a full image of the guitar's sound.

I haven't been recording lately (just getting back to playing a little after rotator cuff surgery), but my last recording setup I had the mics back about 25" from the guitar and separated by about 19".

[Trevor B.]

Originally Posted by ChuckS

What I've picked up from a few on this forum is:
If you pan hard left and hard right and playback in stereo you don't have to be concerned with the phase cancellation;
Use the distance between the mics to get the width of the stereo field that you like.

While close micing can get a good recording, I prefer having the mics back a ways to get more of a full image of the guitar's sound.

I haven't been recording lately (just getting back to playing a little after rotator cuff surgery), but my last recording setup I had the mics back about 25" from the guitar and separated by about 19".

Your suggestions basically mirror what I've been doing as does your latest recording set-up. However; my ultimate goal is to record a CD project here in my little home studio so the miking set -up I settle on will have to sum to mono. M/S will get the job done but so far my attempts at it have been mixed at best.

[Halcyon/Tinker]

I'm not sure if this would be considered proper technique, but it seems to work.

I get each mic where I like it's sound, neck usually 12", lower bout mic usually about 30-36" away. Then at the start or end of a take, I will lightly tap the bridge with pick or nail, something that gives a small but clear transient attack. Then I line up the spike manually in the daw by nudging the close mic back at extreme zoom till the spike aligns. I like the sound, but never pan hard left and right entirely, which never sounds natural to me with any mic setup.

[rick-slo]

The 3:1 rule does not apply to stereo mic'ing a single sound source, such as a guitar.

The 3:1 rule comes in when mic'ing multiple sound sources - most logically each sound source with one mike (mono). Classic example would be two singers - singer A' with mike a', singer B' with mike b", and with singer A' three times closer to mike a' than singer B' is to mike a', and vice versa. It is about volume levels at each mike to decrease one singer bleeding into the other singer's mike. Even then in the resultant multi mike recording the more you pan the mikes towards the center (towards mono) the more you lose the phase (bleeding) issue advantage you might have gained by using the 3:1 mike spacing.

Regarding possible timing issues when stereo recording the guitar (different distances of each mike from the guitar) it is easy enough post recording to delay the right or left channel a little if it helps the sound (one millisecond equaling about one foot distance).

Personally I usually record with a spaced pair of mikes with each mike at approximately the same distance from the guitar.

[Trevor B.]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

The 3:1 rule does not apply to stereo mic'ing a single sound source, such as a guitar.

The 3:1 rule comes in when mic'ing multiple sound sources - most logically each sound source with one mike (mono). Classic example would be two singers - singer A' with mike a', singer B' with mike b", and with singer A' three times closer to mike a' than singer B' is to mike a', and vice versa. It is about volume levels at each mike to decrease one singer bleeding into the other singer's mike. Even then in the resultant multi mike recording the more you pan the mikes towards the center (towards mono) the more you lose the phase (bleeding) issue advantage you might have gained by using the 3:1 mike spacing.

Regarding possible timing issues when stereo recording the guitar (different distances of each mike from the guitar) it is easy enough post recording to delay the right or left channel a little if it helps the sound (one millisecond equaling about one foot distance).

Personally I usually record with a spaced pair of mikes with each mike at approximately the same distance from the guitar.

So Graham Cochrane is wrong?
http://therecordingrevolution.com/20...stakes-part-2/

[billgennaro]

Originally Posted by Halcyon/Tinker

I'm not sure if this would be considered proper technique, but it seems to work.

I get each mic where I like it's sound, neck usually 12", lower bout mic usually about 30-36" away. Then at the start or end of a take, I will lightly tap the bridge with pick or nail, something that gives a small but clear transient attack. Then I line up the spike manually in the daw by nudging the close mic back at extreme zoom till the spike aligns. I like the sound, but never pan hard left and right entirely, which never sounds natural to me with any mic setup.

This is basically what I do as well. Works well! I also don't pan hard left and right.

[Doug Young]

There are very few things that are right or wrong about recording. It all comes down to what sounds good, tho there are certainly guidelines and things that have worked for other people. The biggest problem with following recording articles, is that recording solo guitar is so rare, in the grand scheme of things, that it's a pretty specialized process that most people aren't addressing it in these articles. If you followed all the rules - for example, a minimum of 16 inches away from the guitar to avoid proximity effect, and then the 3-1 rule, you'd have the mics 4 feet apart. That may work in some rooms, if you have great acoustics. For most of us at home, even with treated rooms, that may not produce the best sound. My rule is "put the mics where they sound good". For close micing, I haven't found the 3-1 rule very useful. I also don't mix my stereo tracks to mono, which is mostly where this comes into play.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Trevor B.

So Graham Cochrane is wrong?
http://therecordingrevolution.com/20...stakes-part-2/

There is a lot of misinformation out there. 3:1 applies to certain cases of mic'ing multiple sound sources, not to stereo mic'ing a single guitar.

Here is a bit more info to read:
http://www.independentrecording.net/..._time_3to1.htm


Regarding mic'ing a guitar with 3:1 Graham is wrong. Regarding mic'ing drums that Graham talked about, since drums are spread out over a large area and there are different types of drums in a drum kit ,you could consider it a multiple sound source. However if you record them in stereo but then post recording pan the mikes in towards center your losing any possible advantage from the 3:1 mike setup.

[MikeBmusic]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

There is a lot of misinformation out there. 3:1 applies to certain cases of mic'ing multiple sound sources, not to stereo mic'ing a single guitar.

Here is a bit more info to read:
http://www.independentrecording.net/..._time_3to1.htm


Regarding mic'ing a guitar with 3:1 Graham is wrong. Regarding mic'ing drums that Graham talked about, since drums are spread out over a large area and there are different types of drums in a drum kit ,you could consider it a multiple sound source. However if you record them in stereo but then post recording pan the mikes in towards center your losing any possible advantage from the 3:1 mike setup.

This link is the correct information - the 2nd microphone needs to be 3X as far from the sound source as the first microphone to reduce phasing issues. Not 3X the distance from the other microphone.
Alternately, have both mics at the same distance from the sound source. So if you've got one mic 12" from the 12th fret, you can put a 2nd mic 12" from the lower bout.
Record them to separate tracks, then listen in mono (Reaper has a button to do that, most DAWs do) to listen for phase issues.

[Trevor B.]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

There is a lot of misinformation out there. 3:1 applies to certain cases of mic'ing multiple sound sources, not to stereo mic'ing a single guitar.

Here is a bit more info to read:
http://www.independentrecording.net/..._time_3to1.htm


Regarding mic'ing a guitar with 3:1 Graham is wrong. Regarding mic'ing drums that Graham talked about, since drums are spread out over a large area and there are different types of drums in a drum kit ,you could consider it a multiple sound source. However if you record them in stereo but then post recording pan the mikes in towards center your losing any possible advantage from the 3:1 mike setup.

Thanks for the link. Just to be clear, I did not think of the 3:1 rule as applying to the measurement of distance between mikes and source but rather the distance in a lateral sense between mikes compared to their distance from the source. If we conclude that the "independent recording' assertion is correct then my insurmountable obstacle or "wall" as it's more often referred to ceases to be an issue.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by MikeBmusic

This link is the correct information - the 2nd microphone needs to be 3X as far from the sound source as the first microphone to reduce phasing issues. Not 3X the distance from the other microphone.
Alternately, have both mics at the same distance from the sound source. So if you've got one mic 12" from the 12th fret, you can put a 2nd mic 12" from the lower bout.
Record them to separate tracks, then listen in mono (Reaper has a button to do that, most DAWs do) to listen for phase issues.

Chuck the 3:1 idea entirely when stereo recording a single source.

Now the guitar is not a point source due to its size. Also somewhat different sounds do come from different parts of the guitar (12th fret area versus lower bout for example). You will get phase issues no matter what you do when you collapse to mono, and even when you start to pan in from hard right and left towards center. Personally I do not care what a stereo recording of a solo guitar sounds like reduced to mono, especially since it compromises my sound options I have available to me in the stereo recording.

As far as the mike distances from the guitar, you may or may not get the best sound if the distances are equal because the distance for each mike is measured from a different part of the guitar. I generally keep the mike distances fairly similar to each other to keep about the same degree of guitar volume and room acoustics effects at each mike. The distances do not need to be that similar however as you can, if needed, easily time delay post recording.

Position the mikes while listening with headphones to find what sounds the best. If in doubt, record a bit and listen back, perhaps with a bit of reverb and/or delay experimentation. Position the mikes some more if not happy with what you hear.