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  #91  
Old 07-16-2013, 02:15 PM
stuw stuw is offline
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Nick
Looking good...I'm enjoying watching your build...

Stu
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  #92  
Old 07-16-2013, 11:22 PM
Viking Viking is offline
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Originally Posted by stuw View Post
Nick
Looking good...I'm enjoying watching your build...

Stu
Thanks Stuw. Me too.

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Originally Posted by viento View Post
Hi,

is your drum sander reliable concerning the thickness you want?
That's a complicated question. I guess the answer is both yes and no. I had heard of folks velcro-ing their sand paper to the drum, and that the extra cushion helps the sander handle the wood better. I had also heard that a somewhat flexible piece of wood as the main adjustable table will achieve the same thing. In the interest of not spending any more money on the thing than I had to, I went with the later, as I had some half inch particle board lying around. That and the fact that the height adjustment is NOT directly under the drum, and there is a certain amount of give to the table. This allows the sander to not choke on the wood if the height is set a little too aggressively. But it also means that you can't just set the table at a particular location and expect your wood to be a certain thickness after a pass. For one, the wood has to come off more slowly than that. And for another, the give in the table means that it will take multiple passes before the height the table is set at ceases taking more wood off the work piece.

Make sense?

But mostly, I would have to say yes, it will be reliable in allowing me to come in very closely to a target thickness. As long as you have a caliper near by to measure the thickness of the wood after each pass or two once you get close to your target.

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Originally Posted by KingCavalier View Post
Looks great Nick, looking forward to seeing it complete.

Scott
I am as well. Though I have to say, I'd just be content making faster progress. But, needing to work through the how to on all these things means the work will go slowly for now. I imagine my second build will only take a third to half as long.
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Last edited by Viking; 07-17-2013 at 03:16 AM.
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  #93  
Old 07-16-2013, 11:25 PM
Viking Viking is offline
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So tonight I was working on the real rosette. Made a number of mistakes. But, even given the mistakes, I think it will still turn out okay. I hope to have pictures of it the day after tomorrow. I'll glue it into my real top tomorrow night hopefully, and then sand it flush the day after.
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  #94  
Old 07-17-2013, 09:27 AM
printer2 printer2 is offline
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Originally Posted by Viking View Post
Though I have to say, I'd just be content making faster progress. But, needing to work through the how to on all these things means the work will go slowly for now. I imagine my second build will only take a third to half as long.
Yeah, right now I am making jigs, tooling, working on setting up a workshop, dust collection, pretty much everything but working on a piece of wood that will be attached to a guitar. But once I have all the support structure in place the second guitar should be quicker and less frustrating.

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Originally Posted by viento View Post
Hi,

is your drum sander reliable concerning the thickness you want?
I find that I can get within 0.001 - 0.002" across the work piece. Also adjust and check with calipers as I go.
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  #95  
Old 07-17-2013, 12:18 PM
viento viento is offline
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I find that I can get within 0.001 - 0.002" across the work piece. Also adjust and check with calipers as I go.
Thats not bad.
I guess I´ll build one when I´m getting to make my second guitar...
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  #96  
Old 07-17-2013, 07:41 PM
Viking Viking is offline
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Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
Yeah, right now I am making jigs, tooling, working on setting up a workshop, dust collection, pretty much everything but working on a piece of wood that will be attached to a guitar. But once I have all the support structure in place the second guitar should be quicker and less frustrating.
Yeah, I understand exactly where you are at.
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  #97  
Old 07-17-2013, 11:00 PM
Viking Viking is offline
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So here is my segmented rosette. As I said yesterday, a number of things went wrong while working on it. That theme continued today and so I'm going to have to rebuild it. Not to worry though, I actually figured out a way to do it faster than before.

And for your edification, as well as my own record keeping, here are the mishaps, in no particular order.
  • Insufficient glue in between the light & dark pieces. OR, gluing end grain to end grain. I'm actually not sure which. 3 separate joints failed during various operations that stressed the segmented piece.
  • While performing the initial circle cutting rout on the segmented piece, the method I used to fix the piece in place did not allow the trim router to move smoothly. Thus my first cut was irregular. I had to alter the diameter of the thing at that point, which would not really have ultimately been that big a problem, but still.
  • Was going to have both the inner and outer bands in white oak, but began a rout on the outer band with the circle cutter measured incorrectly, thus killing that piece. Opted for the walnut at that point. This actually gave an interesting look that was not altogether unpleasant, but still.
  • While gluing it up, I used a role of masking tape as the center. This ended up being the thing that resulted in this rosette being unusable. The role deformed slightly under the pressure from the hose clamp I was using and the rosette is now slightly out of round. I could perhaps still use it if I cut the rosette channel manually with a sharp chisel, but, no. I don't think so.
  • Part of the outer walnut band actually has small bits of a plastic bag embedded where the glue joint to the segmented center is. In my haste to get the thing glued, it must have been in the wrong place.

Lessons learned. Don't glue end grain and make sure the joint is not starved. Use a better means of fixing the segmented piece in place before routing them. Use something a bit more rigid when gluing the rosette up, like a piece of wood cut to the right diameter and protected with packing tape to prevent unwanted adhesion. And, take more care while gluing the thing together.

So. I'm not completely certain I know exactly how I'm going to proceed on the rosette front. I actually don't think I like the black/white/black border on this piece. So perhaps I'll just do another segmented rosette with the inner and outer bands and no striping. I also realized there was an easier way to do the individual pieces for the segmented piece. I'll use the circle cutting jig to cut 2 circles out of walnut and white oak, then I'll cut the individual pieces out of those 2 complete circles. Will be easier and faster than what I tried last time.

*sigh* Ah well.

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Last edited by Viking; 07-17-2013 at 11:07 PM.
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  #98  
Old 07-18-2013, 12:11 AM
jeff crisp jeff crisp is offline
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Nick, I should have mentioned that when I use the card base I start with each segment marked out on the card using a compass and protractor. This way not only is there support when cutting out the ring, you dont need to find the centre later because it's already marked out and when making the segments you can check each piece for fit as you cut them (I normally just use a disk sander and adjust if need be on a sanding board). One reason I use super glue is not only does it glue the pieces together but also to the sacrificial base as I go. I sand the base nearly all the way through and then finish by hand using a sanding board. Its to hard to sand evenly at this stage just holding it so I use a block with a circle of card stuck to the block thats a bit thinner than the rosette. Making them on mass with a removable core and then slicing them up is more efficient but for one offs it works for me.

Jeff
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Last edited by jeff crisp; 07-18-2013 at 12:31 AM.
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  #99  
Old 07-22-2013, 09:43 PM
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Okay. Took a few days off from thinking about guitars. It actually induces a decent bit of anxiety when I'm thinking about things that I can't yet do anything about. But then over the week end, I got some decent work done.

Redoing the rosette. I started with 2 thin pieces of wood, established a center, drew the radii, then cut identical pieces, each 1/4 inch wide.



Next I cut the inner and outer bands.



Next, cut the pieces on the radii that I'm shooting for.



Then glue. I used a piece of paper with packing tape for this step. Worked perfectly. And, the center wood piece used for circular integrity, was covered in packing tape along it's circumference.



Rout the rosette channel into the top.



Glue the rosette into the channel, then sand flush. For those of you curious, I did anticipate needing to thin the top a small additional amount. Took probably another .005-.01 off.



An interesting and unintended feature of the rosette... I didn't intend to use one of the sap wood pieces. But in my haste to glue it up, one got in at the 2 o'clock position. I actually kind of like it. Compliments the sap wood that will be there with the back and sides.



I also finished the jointing and gluing on the back. I also began thickness sanding it. Not done yet, will be able to finish tomorrow night.



Next I started on cutting the sound hole with my practice top. Used the Cumpiano popcicle stick method. Didn't like it much, but my exacto knife wasn't that sharp. So I'll need to get another and try again before I cut on my real top. The results on my practice top were not terrible, but the edge of the hole is not very uniform. I would use my circle cutting jig with the trim router, but it won't go the 1 & 7/8 inch radius I need it to. That radius is too small for it.

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Last edited by Viking; 07-22-2013 at 09:58 PM.
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  #100  
Old 07-23-2013, 09:19 PM
KingCavalier KingCavalier is offline
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Very nice work. Why am I not surprised you used a Popsicle stick to cut the sound hole.


Scott
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  #101  
Old 07-24-2013, 06:38 PM
naccoachbob naccoachbob is offline
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Nick, the rosette is cool. Gonna look nice on that top.
I'm not sure if my post is in time or not, but if it is, one word of caution that I found out about last nite. The harder woods that you (and I) use for our rosettes will not sand as quickly as the top material will. I don't have the advantage of a thickness sander, so I don't know how that will work for you. But be careful. If you put the rosette in and it's below the top's surface, when you get pretty close, slow it down real good. I went thru mine although only a little bit. I had so wanted the top to be slick all over with no bumps this time. LOL, but it didn't happen.
My question is going to be, did you see or feel the same that I'm finding on mine? Does the thickness sander work better in this regard than my hand held? I'm sure it does, which will make me try to get one sooner
Thanks, and best of luck,
Bob
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  #102  
Old 07-24-2013, 10:05 PM
Viking Viking is offline
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Originally Posted by KingCavalier View Post
Very nice work. Why am I not surprised you used a Popsicle stick to cut the sound hole.


Scott
I was going to mention the duct tape and my pocket knife, but I didn't want to give you guys too much ammunition to tease me with.

I actually ended up just drilling a hole in the base of my trim router to give me the 1 & 7/8 inch radius and did it that way. Screw the Popsicle stick! Didn't like it anyway, even after I had new, sharp blades. Kept giving me the feeling that it was about to go veering off and cut into wood I didn't want it to.

On another note... I was going to finish thickness sanding my white oak back tonight, but the re-purposed circular saw motor I was using died. I've been giving it regular breaks from the work(it being an intermittent duty motor), but there is still just too much consistent use. So, I called my dad (who is an electronics instrumentation/technician expert), and he walked me through how to wire up the motor I got from the scrap yard. So I'll be wiring that up tonight, verify that it functions, and then tomorrow I'll attach it to the drum sander.

I'm actually kinda glad it died. I don't like using the drum sander now, because it's so freaking loud. I'm afraid it's bothering the neighbors. So it will be good to get this new motor installed and running. It's certain to be one heck of a lot quieter than the other one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by naccoachbob View Post
Nick, the rosette is cool. Gonna look nice on that top.
I'm not sure if my post is in time or not, but if it is, one word of caution that I found out about last nite. The harder woods that you (and I) use for our rosettes will not sand as quickly as the top material will. I don't have the advantage of a thickness sander, so I don't know how that will work for you. But be careful. If you put the rosette in and it's below the top's surface, when you get pretty close, slow it down real good. I went thru mine although only a little bit. I had so wanted the top to be slick all over with no bumps this time. LOL, but it didn't happen.
My question is going to be, did you see or feel the same that I'm finding on mine? Does the thickness sander work better in this regard than my hand held? I'm sure it does, which will make me try to get one sooner
Thanks, and best of luck,
Bob
Good call on the warning about sanding the rosette. Not necessary it seems for a drum sander though. At least, the white oak and walnut rosette I put together sanded to the same height as the surrounding WRC using my drum sander. No difference in height between the two of them. Course, a drum sander works on different principles than an orbital hand sander. Once the wood is at the right height, the drum ceases putting any additional pressure on it unless you crank the knob some more. There might be a small amount of the softwood coming off faster than the hardwood, but as long as you pass the piece through a few times after the drum has ceased taking much of a bite out of the wood, it should be taking the remainder of the hardwood down to the same thickness as the softwood.

At least, that's how it seems to me. I just ran my finger over the joint between the rosette and the cedar again, and it feels smooth. No real difference in the thickness between the two.

So yeah. Definitely want a drum sander. Very nice addition to the tool set.
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  #103  
Old 07-24-2013, 10:13 PM
naccoachbob naccoachbob is offline
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Now I have TAS - tool acquisition syndrome. Thanks for the info, it'll come in handy I hope.
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  #104  
Old 07-24-2013, 10:53 PM
Viking Viking is offline
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Now I have TAS - tool acquisition syndrome. Thanks for the info, it'll come in handy I hope.
I bought 2 of these for the bearings. This for the primary shaft. And this for a variable speed pulley on the drum's primary shaft.

I got a v belt for 8 bucks at the auto parts store. Then the motor. I started with the re-purposed circular saw motor, but I'll end up using an old drier motor from the scrap yard which I got for 12 bucks.

The rest was scrap from the back yard. 2, 2 foot sections of a 4x4. Some planks to serve as the base. Some particle board for the height adjustable table. A couple door hinges for the table. And a bolt for the height adjustment.

Total cost was about 75 bucks.
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  #105  
Old 07-27-2013, 03:44 PM
Viking Viking is offline
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Wired up my scrap yard electric motor. Ran perfectly. It had an existing pulley on it, but it was on the wrong side to run the sander in the direction to which I have become accustomed. So I had to remove it, which was a pain in the rear. But once it was off and remounted on the other side, it was the perfect setup. The half horse, 1700RPM motor runs the sander beautifully. The only noisy part of the process is the sandpaper actually cutting into the work piece. Well, that and the shop vac. It's louder than the sander is. The old circular saw motor is going straight into the trash. The other nice part of the motor is that is doesn't even seem to notice the load when it begins cutting into a work piece. RPMs stay pretty much stable.



So I finished sanding the back. But I do have another major(minor?) mistake to report. I'll not be able to remove all the blade marks from the resawing process from the inside of the back. There are also some minor marks on the outside of the back, but they should be routed off when I do the binding channel. The back is .09" right now, and I don't want to thin it any further. So note to self. When resawing wood myself, allow a little more initial thickness to work with. Won't be a problem when working with wood purchased from an actual wood supplier. This won't affect the instrument cosmetically from the outside. Though if you look into the sound hole, you will see some resaw marks inside the guitar. Shouldn't impact the guitar structurally either.

Today, I took the full size drawings I had printed at staples and cut out the body shape. Then I penciled in the shape on the top and back and used the band saw to cut out the shapes, giving myself half inch or so of room outside the pencil marks.





Next up... bracing. I need to order the wood though, so I'll be idle for a couple days working on actual pieces of a guitar. I'll use the time (hopefully) to put together the form and perhaps build the bending iron. I also need to resaw the sides from my remaining stick of oak.
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Last edited by Viking; 07-27-2013 at 03:50 PM.
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