Mid-side technique? - Page 2

Doug Young · #16 01-17-2012, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChuckS

Hi Larry,
I'd agree that close micing of M-S isn't required for groups/choirs as those musical source are themselves quite wide as compared to a single guitar. My comment was only meant to apply to M-S recording for a single guitar. I'll also admit my experience is much less than many other commenting here, and is partly based on theory of M-S recording and on the characteristics of a figure 8 mic as it moves away from the source.

An MS setup is mathematically equivalent to XY when you mix the two at unity gain. I suspect what you're hearing is just the exaggerated stereo image of being close to the source. You'd get the same thing with X/Y. X/Y (Blumlein) wasn't really meant for close micing, and as you get closer to the guitar, you're getting less and less of the theoretical effect of X/Y micing, and more of each mic picking up different areas of the guitar. Much like the way our eyes see perspective at a distance, but get an object up a few inches from your eyes, and you start seeing the object very differently. MS would have this same effect, but so does X/Y, ORTF, etc. All these theoretical stereo micing techniques were developed for distant micing, orchestras and so on. Moving them into a few inches away tends to create a somewhat different effect.

RRuskin · #17 01-17-2012, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Chuck...
Some of my most successful uses of mid-side are with bluegrass groups and choirs - not close microphone positioning at all.

While backing out the mics does cause mid-side to pick up more of the room, it also expands the natural feel of the recordings.

Are you sure you don't mean the use of single figure 8 mic for a bluegrass group?

ljguitar · #18 01-17-2012, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RRuskin

Are you sure you don't mean the use of single figure 8 mic for a bluegrass group?

RR...
My mid side process consists of using a pair of AKG 414s in cardioid polar configuration, one side facing and one forward facing (not in figure 8).

One is inverted upside down so the grills are nearly touching.

The I record each mic on a separate mono channel, and when complete I copy the side track, duplicate it, reverse it's phase and then pan the side channels hard left/right.

I am not confused about the process…

[EDIT] OK Rick - I was confused. After Doug Young posted about my process, I went down and looked at the array in my (former) studio room (now electronic storage room) and the ''side'' mic…is in Figure 8 polar position...We were doing some MS experiments using the H4 recently so it was still set up...Sorry[EDIT].

Doug Young · #19 01-17-2012, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ljguitar

[size=2]
My mid side process consists of using a pair of AKG 414s in cardioid polar configuration, one side facing and one forward facing (not in figure 8).

Hmm, I'm not sure that truly qualifies as mid-side. Something similar, but different. MS really needs figure-8.

RRuskin · #20 01-17-2012, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Hmm, I'm not sure that truly qualifies as mid-side. Something similar, but different. MS really needs figure-8.

Strictly speaking, it isn't M/S but it will be mono compatible when collapsed. If he likes it, that's all that matters. I've done some weird mic set-ups myself.

Doug Young · #21 01-17-2012, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RRuskin

Strictly speaking, it isn't M/S but it will be mono compatible when collapsed. If he likes it, that's all that matters. I've done some weird mic set-ups myself.

yeah, it's similar to the MS-decoded stereo pickup example I posted a while back. You can use MS processing for lots of things.

ljguitar · #22 01-17-2012, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Hmm, I'm not sure that truly qualifies as mid-side. Something similar, but different. MS really needs figure-8.

Hi Doug...
You are right, of course. I was confused (and edited my post to Rick thus).

I went down and looked at the array we had left set up from a recent H4 experiment using mid-side and sure enough, the inverted side is in Figure 8 polar setting. I must just assemble the rig on auto-pilot.

Don't know what I was thinking, and can't blame it on anything.

Thanks for keeping me straight…

ljguitar · #23 01-17-2012, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RRuskin

Strictly speaking, it isn't M/S but it will be mono compatible when collapsed. If he likes it, that's all that matters. I've done some weird mic set-ups myself.

Hi Rick...
Sorry for the brain glitch...

Interestingly, I did a live Bluegrass concert recording one evening, and they allowed me to use my mid/side array to record, so I tipped the top mic (figure-8 side mic) in sidewise (aligning capsules with the forward facing mic at 90°) and then set both mics to figure 8.

The mic facing the group also picked up the audience off the backside (and it was kind of a rowdy traditional bluegrass crowd).

I duplicated and reversed phase on both mics and hard panned them, and it was a really great spacious faux surround type of effect. I could dial down the pan to group mic to mono during the songs and then ''add'' the audience at the interactive parts of the songs where they were telling stories or where the audience was hooting and shouting.

I don't think that would qualify as mid-side but it sure worked. I figured I could always kill the backside of the front facing mic if it didn't work.

Doug Young · #24 01-17-2012, 06:13 PM

You can use 2 figure 8's for mid-side. I really like using the AEA R88 ribbon for MS because it's so easy to setup. With its vertical form factor, and 2 figure-8s, I can set it up as X/Y, get my balance and sound right, then just give it a quarter-turn twist, and I have MS. If I'm not mistaken, the original invention of MS (by Alan Blumlein) used 2 figure-8 mics.

ljguitar · #25 01-17-2012, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Young

You can use 2 figure 8's for mid-side. I really like using the AEA R88 ribbon for MS because it's so easy to setup. With its vertical form factor, and 2 figure-8s, I can set it up as X/Y, get my balance and sound right, then just give it a quarter-turn twist, and I have MS. If I'm not mistaken, the original invention of MS (by Alan Blumlein) used 2 figure-8 mics.

Thanks Doug...
I thought I was breaking the rules, but it would not be destructive if not totally successful (the rear lobe is not as loud as the front one).

I have not had opportunity to record m/s in a live situation since.

So do you use both on figure 8 in studio? If so, what do you think the rear lobe on the front facing mic adds to the mix?

Doug Young · #26 01-17-2012, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ljguitar

So do you use both on figure 8 in studio? If so, what do you think the rear lobe on the front facing mic adds to the mix?

Yes, I used it a lot, in combination with a 2nd pair of mics on my latest CD. Never ended up using the MS pair alone, but I could have. No idea what the impact of the back lobe is, since I can't shut it off on this mic. It may give a little more room sound, but that's dwarfed by the ribbon sound of the mic.

ljguitar · #27 01-17-2012, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Young

You can use 2 figure 8's for mid-side. I really like using the AEA R88 ribbon for MS because it's so easy to setup. With its vertical form factor, and 2 figure-8s, I can set it up as X/Y, get my balance and sound right, then just give it a quarter-turn twist, and I have MS. If I'm not mistaken, the original invention of MS (by Alan Blumlein) used 2 figure-8 mics.

Hi Doug...
Thanks for the response...some of those guys were sure ahead of their time weren't they?

ScottAllyn · #28 01-17-2012, 07:50 PM

Have you guys had any success using a different brand/model mic for the side? I really like my modified Oktava mics and Oktava does make a Figure-8 "capsule" for them, but it's really just two of their standard cardiod capsules placed back-to-back with quite a bit of space between them. That large space worries me a bit.

Fran Guidry · #29 01-18-2012, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Doug...
Thanks for the response...some of those guys were sure ahead of their time weren't they?

Alan Blumlein wasn't ahead of his time, he created our time. He invented bloody stereo back in 1930 fer goodness sake, figuring out that two channels could convey a sound stage while the rest of the world was sure an array of mics, recording channels, playback channels, and speakers were needed.

He proceeded to create a mic arrangement that captured the stereo image while still collapsing to mono - the Blumlein array (two fig 8s in XY). At about the same time he worked out the math that demonstrated the equivalence between XY and MS and invented MS as well.

After he'd turned the audio world upside down and basically plotted the roadmap for the next 50 or 60 years, he moved on to radar and was key in developing the systems that helped decide the Battle of Britain in favor of the allies.

http://www.abbeyroad.com/News/Articl...nvented-stereo

Fran

ljguitar · #30 01-18-2012, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fran Guidry

Alan Blumlein wasn't ahead of his time, he created our time. He invented bloody stereo back in 1930 fer goodness sake, figuring out that two channels could convey a sound stage while the rest of the world was sure an array of mics, recording channels, playback channels, and speakers were needed.

Hi Fran...
Of course you are right since he was in the forefront of developing things we who love to record are still discovering and growing into.

I'm sure were he alive now he'd be still expanding his adventures, and we'd benefit. Died so young...