"Wolf" Notes

[Erithon]

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

I'm not simply trying to be 'diplomatic' here. The fact is that the the 'dead note' on most guitars, down near the low G, is caused by exactly the same mechanism as the 'wolf note' on a 'cello. The only difference is in the way the strings are driven, as I said. I respect normal usage, of course; without it communication can be difficult. OTOH, if the physics is largely the same, why not acknowledge it?

Makes sense. I think I was more pushing back against the extremes than the physics, but you make a good point. I'll certainly defer to your judgment here: I just play instruments, you build and study them.

[kharma44]

thread error

[Alan Carruth]

jspe wrote:
"I find it helps immensely to tune the guitar, with a chromatic electronic tuner, at the low 3rd fret g note, in other words finger the g note lightly and tune it exactly to the g note.
That's not the end of it though, because the open e will then ring somewhat flat."

The problem is that the bridge is moving a lot at that pitch, due to the way the top and the air in the box are interacting. As the string pulls the bridge up and down the bridge moves, so that what should be the end point of the string at the top of the saddle isn't stationary. Depending on how the resonant pitches of the string and the top line up the string can 'think' it's either shorter or longer than it's supposed to be, and make a higher or lower pitch.

In your case, the bridge motion makes the string 'look' shorter than it's supposed to, which would give it a higher pitch than the tension on it would dictate if the bridge were not moving. You lower the tension a little bit to get that note to ring true. Now the tension is lower than it ought to be and the open string note is flat. It's possible for it to go the other way, too.

FWIW, this is one of the things that makes it impossible to get the intonation of a guitar 'perfect'.

[printer2]

A picture is worth a thousand words they say, who ever they are. Alan does it in far less. but since I have one here is a spectrum analysis of the response of a small guitar's top being tapped in the bridge position.



The peaks give the guitar its efficiency but these are also the frequencies where we get our wolf notes.

[namrok]

I have a "wolf tone" on the F# on the 5th string of my newly acquited Avalon L-32c. The sound of that particular note looses all sustain and takes on a muted character. Interestingly, I just discovered that by pressing down on the top with my fingers while striking that note, all sustain and harmonic content comes back, with no loss of volume. Other notes when played with pressure placed on the top by one or a couple of my fingers loose a slight amount of volume. Must be stopping the interfering resonance of the body on the 5th string F#....

[Dbone]

I'm dealing with one on the G string of a RainSong carbon fiber guitar right now and it is downright obnoxious. It is all I can hear in any chord involving an open G. Trust me, you will know when you have one. This one is quite bad.

Fortunately for me this guitar is getting replaced due to some fairly significant cosmetic issues with the instrument. Here's to hoping the replacement doesn't have the same issue.

Given that it is going back I have not tried changing strings, or anything towards trying to fix/influence the problem.

I have never experienced such problems until now.

[Wasper]

Interesting stuff.

I've owned/own several Walden guitars from their all solid wood series. One of the advertising points from them at the time was the addition of two graphite fiber rails to the interior of the neck. Jonathan Lee (lead designer) said that it did two things. One, it made the neck more stable (which it does). The second thing the two rails were claimed to do was eliminate or greatly reduce these "wolf tones".

Does this jive? I never run across what is being talked about in this thread on any of those Walden guitars. Does this mean that he was telling the truth?? I remember him talking about it in several different videos.

Found it.. the explanation of the neck rails starts at 7:25-ish. Does this sound legit or was he just being a salesman? Either way, I love my Waldens...

[printer2]

Originally Posted by Wasper

Interesting stuff.

I've owned/own several Walden guitars from their all solid wood series. One of the advertising points from them at the time was the addition of two graphite fiber rails to the interior of the neck. Jonathan Lee (lead designer) said that it did two things. One, it made the neck more stable (which it does). The second thing the two rails were claimed to do was eliminate or greatly reduce these "wolf tones".

Does this jive? I never run across what is being talked about in this thread on any of those Walden guitars. Does this mean that he was telling the truth?? I remember him talking about it in several different videos.

Found it.. the explanation of the neck rails starts at 7:25-ish. Does this sound legit or was he just being a salesman? Either way, I love my Waldens...

He says wolf tones in the neck. Generally wolf tones are from the body of the guitar. I would be a little skeptical but other more experience people could prove me wrong on this one.

[Dbone]

Originally Posted by Wasper

Interesting stuff.

I've owned/own several Walden guitars from their all solid wood series. One of the advertising points from them at the time was the addition of two graphite fiber rails to the interior of the neck. Jonathan Lee (lead designer) said that it did two things. One, it made the neck more stable (which it does). The second thing the two rails were claimed to do was eliminate or greatly reduce these "wolf tones".

Does this jive? I never run across what is being talked about in this thread on any of those Walden guitars. Does this mean that he was telling the truth?? I remember him talking about it in several different videos.

Found it.. the explanation of the neck rails starts at 7:25-ish. Does this sound legit or was he just being a salesman? Either way, I love my Waldens...

This guitar I mentioned above is the first time I’ve ever experienced it on any of my guitars, or other guitars I’ve played....You could just be lucky like I have been to this point?

I have no idea about this neck business you mention, or it’s ability to quell wolf notes...Like has been stated, my understanding is that it body related...

[Alan Carruth]

Wasper asked:
"The second thing the two rails were claimed to do was eliminate or greatly reduce these "wolf tones".

Does this jive?"

Yes, it does jive in the sense of the word used as an article, being "glib, deceptive, or foolish talk" Hence it does not jibe: "to be in accord (agree)". (Webster's 9th New Collegiate Dictionary)

Neck stiffness can affect the sound on solid body electrics. The necks are long and thin, and by far the most flexible part of the guitar, and thus they move a lot relative to what the body can do. On an acoustic there's only one 'neck' resonance that can reliably influence the sound that I know of. It only commonly comes into play on Classical and Flamenco guitars, and tends to help the low end sound when it does. On steel strings it's normally at to low a pitch, although with enough CF in the neck you might get it to happen more often. Even then it would probably be hit or miss, since it's really a whole-body resonance that just happens to bend a lot in the neck.

[Herb Hunter]

Originally Posted by Wasper

...Does this mean that he was telling the truth??

No, he wasn’t speaking the truth. He may not have been lying, however, if he actually believed what he was saying in the video.

In the video, he said:

Another advantage, uh graphite uh and carbon fiber is uh excellent sound transmitter so it stiffens up the neck such that uh possible, possible wolf tones – resonant frequencies in the neck – essentially disappear because the neck can’t vibrate at a frequency that would then um cause a certain wolf tone at a certain certain uh frequency.

He doesn’t appear to have fully thought out what he was saying.

[Alan Carruth]

I'm sorry if my post was not clear. Wasper cited the video saying that neck vibration causes wolf notes, and asked: "Does this jive?". I'm pretty sure from the context that he meant to ask something like:"Does this ring true", but by using 'jive' he was really asking: "Is this misleading or false", the opposite of what he seemed to mean. Maybe I got it wrong, and if so I apologize. Anyway, the substitution of 'jive' for 'jibe' in this sort of context has become common enough that it's rising to the top of my pet peeve list, and I'm trying to think of nice ways to correct it.

From what I understand about guitar acoustics, and the measurements I've made over several decades, it's extremely unlikely that a neck vibration would contribute noticeably to a 'wolf' note on an acoustic guitar. The neck simply doesn't move all that much as compared with other parts of the guitar, particularly the top, the air moving through the sound hole, and the back. I'm not saying it's impossible: these things are complicated, but I haven't seen it yet. If somebody can show me an acoustic guitar where that happens I'd like to see the data.

Solid body electrics are a whole other can of worms. The long, skinny necks on those are flexible enough that they can give rise to all sorts of 'dead' notes. This is particularly true of basses, of course, partly due to the bridge location, IMO. But solid body guitars are a much different system from normal acoustics, and you need to be really careful in drawing parallels.

[Richard284]

Joe your description of a “thudding low sustain frequency” is exactly what I am experiencing with the F note on both the third fret D string and the 8th fret A string on my Martin OM-18V guitar on which I recently had a fret job. I told the luthier about the problem and he immediately said bring it in. I described it (perhaps inaccurately) as an almost instantaneous dull buzz (but not a fret buzz), when I plucked the string. Despite working on it with me for about 2 hours, he could not hear it. And neither could the guy in his shop who makes custom-made guitars, and neither could the experienced multi-musician gentleman who brought in a violin while I was there. But I hear it every time I pick up my guitar. Since you described the phenomenon so exactly (for me), I was wondering if you have any theories. The musician made an F note and blew it into the guitar and immediately said, "well, you do have an F wolf tone in your guitar." But nobody could hear that translating into the phenomenon I am experiencing. Could I have wolf tone or a dead spot in my head (well, I do, but we won’t go there)? Any ideas…anybody…as to how this could be?

[Joe Beamish]

Originally Posted by Richard284

Joe your description of a “thudding low sustain frequency” is exactly what I am experiencing with the F note on both the third fret D string and the 8th fret A string on my Martin OM-18V guitar on which I recently had a fret job. I told the luthier about the problem and he immediately said bring it in. I described it (perhaps inaccurately) as an almost instantaneous dull buzz (but not a fret buzz), when I plucked the string. Despite working on it with me for about 2 hours, he could not hear it. And neither could the guy in his shop who makes custom-made guitars, and neither could the experienced multi-musician gentleman who brought in a violin while I was there. But I hear it every time I pick up my guitar. Since you described the phenomenon so exactly (for me), I was wondering if you have any theories. The musician made an F note and blew it into the guitar and immediately said, "well, you do have an F wolf tone in your guitar." But nobody could hear that translating into the phenomenon I am experiencing. Could I have wolf tone or a dead spot in my head (well, I do, but we won’t go there)? Any ideas…anybody…as to how this could be?

My OM clearly has a dead note at F#, a note that doesn't ring out the same way as all the others, and I've accepted it as part of the instrument, an aspect of its native resonance. This guitar is always talking back at me anyway, sitting on the floor in its stand; when I speak, sing, or mumble, it responds. More so than other guitars I've had.

In short, I figure that the situation is like the Whack-A-Mole game. If I ask a technician or luthier to fart around with the guitar, the wolf note will probably just move to somewhere else. And I can live with a grumpy F# much more easily than I could live with a grumpy G.

Plus I take a philosophical view. I think that great strengths often come with a corresponding weakness of some kind. Aside from a too-shallow neck, my OM is kinda perfect up and down the fretboard almost to the point of lacking a personality, and it's highly resonant, always talking, so I guess the wolf note is the counterpoint to all this. I like that an acoustic guitar is a living thing in a way, not made of plastic or carbon or fiberglass, or whatever, and that it's affected by different levels of humidity and all that.

[Richard284]

Thanks for your reply, what boggles my mind about my situation is, I'm the only on who hears it!