Stumbled into 1973 D-28 Martin ownership unintentionally

[Kerbie]

Originally Posted by Jimhar

I wish I could get the photos of the guitar to post so you could see the issues im talking about.

Welcome, Jimhar. As a registered user, you have two ways to post pictures here. You may use the Tapatalk app if the pics are on a mobile device. Or you may use a third-party host like Imgur. Please look at this thread and you're welcome to PM me if you have questions.

There is a ton of help for navigating the AGF available in the FAQs, particularly if you scroll down to the Board FAQs.

[Skarsaune]

Originally Posted by Jimhar

I am located in northeast Michigan and its fairly remote here but not what you would call off the grid.

Nice. I grew up in Battle Creek and went to college in Ann Arbor.

Not sure how far it would be for you but you have a couple good resources in MI. Ann Arbor Guitars is a top notch repair shop, and Elderly Instruments as well. Could be worth a day trip.

[SkipII]

Turn it over to Trigger's luthier. I will need that level of expertise.

[Jimhar]

I was finally able to get some pics uploaded of the guitar(see post #12). So please take a look and give me your take on what this thing will take to fix properly. I'm anxious to hear what might be suggested after seeing the pictures of the guitar soundboard joint. I honestly feel that the picture does not look as bad as it does in reality. I will admit that I like to see things perfect. This is far from that. But other than the crack in the back I think this soundboard joint is the worst part to deal with. It may not have a great deal to do with the sound of the guitar but the looks of the instrument are not good in this state. I'm not sure this soundboard can be restored to its former glory. What then would be the desired fix?

[Skarsaune]

Pictures don’t look nearly as bad as I expected.

Normal neck dovetail.

Usually the 15th fret is pulled to get access to steam the dove tail joint for removal. Extension is broke at the 16th and 15th is still there. No telling what went on there but no big trouble.

Totally normal diamond cleats for a crack. It does look like it’s right at the center seam.

The issue you have is, there is old glue in that seam. New glue doesn’t like to stick to old glue. So just putting more glue in there isn’t going to help. Also, the cleats, and the braces, if all are solidly attached, are maintaining the relationship of the two halves.

Get the guitar properly humidified and see if the crack/seam closes appreciably.
I personally would leave it alone.

How thick is the top now, after sanding?

[JonWint]

That's a replacement top. The rosette is not any Martin style with which I'm familiar.

The top finish wasn't sanded off. It was never finished. I hope the bridge hasn't been glued on. Top should be finished first.

Ask the seller if the original top still exists.

[Jimhar]

I have in my possession all parts that were removed from the guitar in the process of taking it apart. The heel trim piece as well as the broken off fingerboard extension and the fret that was removed or fell out whatever the case there. I think that the neck was steamed off by drilling a hole from the heel of the neck up into the bottom of the dovetail joint as there is a plug that has been placed there to fill the hole and there is blistering around where the neck mates to the front of the guitar on either side of the neck. There is also no evidence of the drilling from the top at all. The breaking of the fret board was just a mishap in the process.

I can't decide whether the top is the original or new but it seems not to have any finish on it. The bracing if it was removed and replaced I don't see any evidence of it on the binding. The sound hole does not appear to match anything I have been able to find. So that is strange. The previous owner has passed and the wife knew very little about the instrument. I did get a glued up top of spruce but it was not cut to shape and installed.

[John Arnold]

I don't see much point in trying to save the top. The seam separation is indicative of a top that was braced and installed when the moisture content was too high. These operations need to be done when the indoor humidity is lower than the annual average humidity for the area.....typically, less than 45%. In addition to the incorrect rosette, there is a good chance that the bracing is not what it should be.
I would contact Martin Guitarmaker's Connection and get a dreadnought top that is joined and sanded, and is routed for the proper 28 style rosette. This is the way tops are prepared for their kits. They also have the other materials (binding, bracing, bridge etc.) that are necessary to do a proper restoration.
As you suspect, the fingerboard is repairable.

[Jimhar]

I did notice that the binding on the top was also new as it was much whiter than the bottom binding. The binding being so different is not looking that great now that I notice the difference. I was reading somewhere this morning that you could get binding that was aged to match the older binding of vintage guitars. I have wondered just how much the top replacement would have of the value of the guitar. I have read that the 70's era Martin guitars have some stigma associated with them and that a problem that some did have was the improper location of the bridge distance from the nut by 1/4". The reference to this in the review I read was referring to valuations regarding this adjustment to the location of the bridge being changed and the bridge itself being changed. That got me thinking about the effect the top change would have on the value of the instrument. Anyway my concern is the binding of the new top should I choose to replace it looking like a better match to the old binding. I am pretty sure that this is the original bridge that was on the guitar but in the right light you can see some very subtle discoloration around the bridge on the new top. Other than these appearance concerns I am wondering just what effect the new wood will have on the sound of the guitar. All that you read about these old vintage guitars talks about the age of the soundboard having everything to do with the sound they produce. Do those who perform restorations take this into consideration when they are faced with this issue. Maybe I'm just too curious or its my engineer showing.

I also noticed that there are some slight disturbances of the finish on the side around the bindings like a dulling of the shine in places. Would you just buff that out to blend or what exactly? I also noticed some blistering of the topcoat on each side of the neck that must have come from steam escaping the dovetail joint while removing the neck. That looks quite hideous and is a must fix situation. Not sure quite how to approach that fix yet.

[John Arnold]

White Boltaron binding does not yellow with age. The color is due to aging of the lacquer on top of the binding. Restoration specialists will spray the binding and rosette with a yellow-brown tinted lacquer to match the age. That also usually involves removing some of the tint on the edges of the binding to simulate worn off lacquer. Properly done, it can escape detection by a casual observer.
The dull finish on the sides may be bare wood showing through. New binding must be leveled after installation, and it is very difficult to do this without cutting through the finish on the sides. That is why a top replacement that includes new binding will often involve refinishing the sides. The blistered lacquer can be repaired using a combination of melting the detached lacquer, drop filling, and spot spraying. Level sand and buff, of course.
Too late now, but I recommend leaving the binding in place when replacing a top. A router is used to remove the old top, and also for cutting the channel for the purfling.

[Jimhar]

John Arnold that is some good information especially the tinted lacquer. Is there any formula for the tint that you know of or is it just a trial and error thing? I was wondering why the finish was dull on the sides where there was no damage to be seen from cracking or otherwise. Now that solves another mystery for me. I did contact the wife of the owner again to see if she knew anything about the top replacement.
All she knew was that the business that had the instrument had gone out of business and it was sent back to them in the box that I got it in. Still with their return address on it. They were Herb David Guitar Studio in Ann Arbor, Mi. where her late husband purchased the Martin in 1978 she said. They had the guitar returned to them when Herb retired and this is the way they got it back from them. As I understand it Herb was about 80 years old at the time and had taken on this project of her husbands personally but for whatever reason it came back like this. As I understand it the business is still open with some of the original people that worked there taking the reigns. The place enjoyed a good rep for the 50 years it remained open. Anyway the old top is I'm sure long gone and probably was destroyed. Shame about that! The aged wood would have been nice to have. But if there is no fixing the old top through re-humidification then I suppose a new top maybe one of the torrefied wood ones would be in order. I know nothing about them but I have read that they do age the wood properties right off the starting line. Any info on that would be welcome. I have been looking into the 70's Martins and have found that they have some not so fond reputation from the time period as do other brands. Some say that the only real problem the D-28 had was some bridges were not located properly but the one on this as near as I can tell is not one that has that issue. I also have understood that some have replaced the back plate under the bridge with a smaller maple one and removed what they call the pop sickle stick brace that was added for cracking near the neck block in the front. I am also going to need to replace the pick guard as it does not have one now. Few smallish cracks and all should be good. Appreciate the help John.

[Jimhar]

I have continued to investigate just what may have landed this guitar in the state that I find it in presently. To sum up what I know as reasonable takeaways from what forum responses have been are that the present top is indeed a new top that for whatever reason has a non finished or non standard rosette. Further more this new unfinished top seems to have experienced some neglect and been allowed to experience adverse environmental exposure which has caused shrinkage to occur in the new top which has caused separation in spots along the joint of the two halves making up the area primarily below the bridge area of the top. That being all the facts that seemed to make sense to that point I decided to reach out again to the late owner's wife for any more information on the guitar and she said that the guitar was returned to them from The Herb David Guitar Studio in 2014 in its current state when Herb David retired and sold or leased the business to new owners.

Current state of affairs is I have a time capsule in a shipping crate that contains a neck removed from a included body. The current state of the top has improved considerable due to I expect the change of environment from when I purchased it and placed it in my heated house. The joint between the two halves looks quite good and closed up nicely. My decision now is which way do I go with it from here.

Here are the unresolved issues that must be considered to reach a conclusion. There are three cracks that seem to be related to this matter of the apparent neck reset issue and the current new top on the body. Two cracks exist on the new top on either side of the fingerboard extension beside the neck block extending just past the end of the neck block toward the sound hole. There is a third crack on the back on one side by the neck block extending along the grain about an inch or two beyond the end of the neck block. These three cracks seem to me to be caused by the movement in an upward direction of the neck block judging from the displacement of the cracks that exist. The logical conclusion that I come to is the neck was placed back on the body after the new top was in place and for whatever reason the existing displacement and cracking of the new front and existing back thereafter occurred. The neck was again removed and due to the impending close of the business the instrument was packed up and shipped back to the owner where it remained untouched for the 6 or 7 years until I got it. I have done an extensive inspection of the bracing that is installed on the new top and it is the STANDARD "X" NON-SCALLOPED bracing which was utilized on guitars constructed with a dovetail neck joint as I have come to understand from my research. As far as I can see the new bracing seems to be fabricated, attached and installed with great attention to detail and professional results. No complaints with that. I can only surmise an accident occurred in the attempt to move the guitar and/or prepare to ship it the neck took a hit maybe causing the damage. I'm only speculating here. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks Jim

[JonWint]

Comments embedded below:

Originally Posted by Jimhar

"My decision now is which way do I go with it from here."

Finishing the guitar with the top you have is the easiest way to have a playable guitar. It can never be worth more than a fraction (like 1/2) of the value of an original guitar in excellent condition.

If you want it to look like a D-28, you need a different rosette. Same future value applies. I can't tell if the binding/purfling is exact 28 style.

"Two cracks exist on the new top on either side of the fingerboard extension beside the neck block extending just past the end of the neck block toward the sound hole."

You should post some in-focus photos (internal and external) of this area. If the block moved and caused a shear failure in the top you will need to repair this area. It's odd to see a failure in a top that hasn't been finished. The neck is not usually installed before finishing the top.

The neck has a square tube reinforcement. Some people fill the interior with a carbon fiber square bar for additional reinforcement. The square tubes have been known to fail due to glue adhesion failure or creep.

[phavriluk]

My opinion:

Advice scattered among the posts: This is a major project requiring experience, judgement, and perspective. OP has a chance to either get this guitar rescued and put back into use, or thoroughly waste the opportunity and the potential in the instrument. A luthier could install a current 2-way truss rod, fit a new fingerboard, inspect, potentially salvage and retain the soundboard and binding and in the end create a fine instrument from the project submitted. OP ain't going to do that, I think, first time out of the gate on a salvage project regardless of his obvious intelligence.

My analogy is that no matter how smart somebody is, he can't fly an airplane till he learns the hundreds of tasks involved. Same thing with lutherie. No shortcut to a good result.

OP: find a luthier, estimate the effort and cost, and proceed from a position of knowledge. If the estimated costs are offputting, sell the project off to someone who is prepared to see it through, but don't reject the luthier's estimate and try to do on the cheap and without experience a job that somebody who knows what he is talking about has defined. Those skills got created for a reason.

[Jimhar]

JonWint thanks for taking the time to reply. I would dearly love to be able to put this guitar back into service with this original top made functional again. I am hopeful that I am able to find the way to make that happen. I would love to do all the things that are required to achieve that goal and in the process not diminish the value of the instrument any more than necessary. The situation I find myself in is having been dealt a hand that depends on how well I choose to play those cards I hold.I am not in any hurry to make any bad decisions here. I have decided to see this project through to it's end and if at all possible and end that I will like. The devaluation of the instrument is something that is out of my control until it fell in my lap and now I have an opportunity to enjoy bringing some life back into this one. This guitar is in great shape for it's age and has potential to become a great guitar again. I feel that it not only has potential to sound great again but also to look very respectable in it's well preserved state. I have looked at the neck block and can't quite decide how to approach the fix yet and hope to post some pics of it so others may have ideas of what is possible. I do think it hay have hope though. As far as the rosette I have yet to find the dimensions to evaluate that situation. I don't know what can be done with the top installed already though. That will require crawling out of the box I think. Here again I would like to get it to look or be original but we will see. Any ideas? HEHE

I am going to try to take some shots of the body dovetail area to show the displaced areas as best I can where the cracking is. and some close shots of the rosette as well. As for the neck it appears to be quite straight. I have not considered what you mentioned about using carbon fiber tube to reinforce it. Sounds like something to look into.

Thanks for taking a look at my mess and offering some of your valuable time and advice. Jim