Flatpicking practising, how slow to dial back for 'good learnin'?

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by Andyrondack

That's something noted by neurologist Josh Turknett in the Laws of Brainjo, once control has been granted to subconscious long term memory it's difficult to go back to conscious control without the wheels falling off.

On a slightly different topic: I practice the wheels falling off. Because that's what happens when I get nervous when performing. I can learn something at home to "automatic" level but if I think about the playing or try to consciously find the words when performing in front of others the wheels used to be very likely to fall off. The usual advice is to just relax and trust your non-conscious. Which is easier said than done.

What works best for me is to learn a song to non-conscious performance level at home, and the week before a performance to break it back down again. Then I have no trouble either working from the non-conscious or holding everything together during those flashes of conscious thinking caused by stage nerves. BTW. I can do a lot of the breaking a song back down away from my guitar; often when out on a bike ride.

[tdlwhite]

Originally Posted by Italuke

...To me the "slow then gradually speed up" approach falls apart because it's easy to, subconsciously perhaps, "cheat" at slow tempos because the mechanics required are different than at fast. Maybe it's just a matter of degree of fast vs. slow.

I wonder about this idea - the 'cheating' at slow tempos. Perhaps when I'm playing at slower speeds I can get it sounding clean through conscious micro-adjustments of an inefficient technique, rather than a good clean technique on its own.

Originally Posted by fantex

Great work so far. I assume you've seen this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMGwH5As72g

Yeah, that and a lot of Tory Grady's vids. All interesting watches!

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

...It is all about charging the rhythm or it just doesn't work. As I found out last week LOL!!!

... "Fast" is not slow speeded up - it is physically something very different....

Great playing BTW, far more advanced than anything I play. It must be taking loads of work!

Thanks Robin. Yes - loads and loads of hours of practise (though probably on average an hour a day of playing, so not like I've dedicated my life to it!). What if 'fast' is 'slow but *exactly correct*' speeded up? This is what worries me about being told 'go back to 60bpm and do it perfect' -- because I could play perfect at 60bpm holding the pick between thumb and pinky, but that would fall apart pretty soon when pushed!

Tom

[tdlwhite]

Originally Posted by Andyrondack

...Neurologists inform us that this is because our conscious brains are not built for speed and if we want to perform a series of highly controlled physical movements as fast as possible
then we need to relax , stop paying so much attention to what the hands are doing and leave the subconscious memory to take control of our movements.

Yes - but we need to get our subconscious brain hooked into the right movement/technique first. Perhaps there's two subconscious aspects: one to turn whole blocks of tune into muscle-memorized segments that can be played 'without thinking', and another that is smaller chunks of fine-motor movements that we use to get through the blocks of tune.

Originally Posted by marciero

..I can recall any number of instructional videos - one with Tony Rice comes to mind- where they have difficulty demonstrating a part slowed down.

that's true for *some* players, others can quite easily slow it down into regular speed. Perhaps the ones that can slow it down are those that have more consciously worked on the technique over a shorter period?

Originally Posted by Brent Hutto

I think it depends in part of your skill/experience level vs. the demands of the thing you're learning...

Yes - I agree, and if you don't spot that something is 'way above your level', then you might be applying the practice to no avail. I do this all the time, and can usually tell I've bitten off more than I can chew when I resort to short-cuts in technique. So, if I have to hammer-on because I can't pick fast enough, then I've missed the point. (well, I'm happy to do that if it sounds good, but I can't expect my alternate picking to improve if I'm constantly hammering my way through a fast passage!)

Originally Posted by Andyrondack

That's something noted by neurologist Josh Turknett in the Laws of Brainjo, once control has been granted to subconscious long term memory it's difficult to go back to conscious control without the wheels falling off.

Yeah, but once I'm worried about my inability to play *slow*, I'll probably be where I want to get!

Tom

[SprintBob]

Tom,

As an audience, I found listening to this tune very pleasant from 70-90 bpm. At 100 bpm and above (including Carl Miner’s performance of the song), I think some of the beauty of the notes gets lost in the speed increases which you handled quite well.

I can appreciate fast picking from players mentioned previously like Molly Tuttle and Billy Strings but if I listened to nothing but an album of that kind of playing, frankly I would get bored. I've been to several Tommy Emmanuel concerts where the speed and dynamics is amazing but equally enjoyable is when he slows down and allows the music to flow and breath.

Hope that adds some perspective.

BTW, are you learning all of Carl's tunes by ear?

[tdlwhite]

Originally Posted by SprintBob

Tom,

As an audience, I found listening to this tune very pleasant from 70-90 bpm. At 100 bpm and above (including Carl Miner’s performance of the song), I think some of the beauty of the notes gets lost in the speed increases which you handled quite well.

...

BTW, are you learning all of Carl's tunes by ear?

Thanks Bob! My end goal is that I'll get faster without losing the clarity. I do agree that constant fast stuff is draining to listen to, but I still wanna be able to play it!

I'm learning from the youtube videos -- which I don't really count as 'by ear' because I get to see exactly what his hands are doing most of the time. Back in the 90s I had to work stuff out by ear, which resulted in (a) stuff never sounding quite right and (b) everything suiting my style of playing - meaning I could be 'lazy' and never have to alternate-pick etc.

Tom

[tdlwhite]

After 6 more weeks of practice, I recorded a version at 121bpm -- I stuck it in the Show/tell thread, so won't repost here!

Tom