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Old 02-20-2020, 06:41 PM
Chipotle Chipotle is online now
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Default Mastering, metering and LUFS

I recorded a "band" version of a country track--drums, bass, acoustic & electric guitar, vox and some harmonica. I'm a bit confused even after multiple online tutorials. Maybe some kind soul can help me understand what's going on.

With the master fader at 0, I put on all my effects, got my mix, etc. so that for most of the song the master VU meter was bopping along around -10 to -6 or so, and peaks about -3. In the past, I would have been happy and printed it. (DAW is Reaper, FWIW.)

I thought I'd see about getting things to the proper LUFS level for streaming. I got Ozone 8 Elements and Youlean Loudness Meter (both thanks to this forum).

First check of the mix using just Youlean as the last plugin on the master: -28 LUFS. Wow, that quiet? When I set the DAW meter to RMS only, it hovered around -12. I didn't expect such a big difference--isn't LUFS, loosely, a weighted, time-averaged power measurement?

So I turned on Ozone, and cranked the maximizer to about -15db threshold. Checked the loudness, and voila, LUFS at -13.

But what I don't understand is that that also cranked the master VU meter into the red... +3 RMS, and peaks through the roof. I had to turn my speakers way down. However, when I actually rendered the song, the resulting WAV didn't sound distorted by clipping.

So what am I missing here? Something about the gain staging/mix of the original tracks, how to use Ozone and Youlean, misunderstanding of what the master VU meters are telling me, or something else?
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Old 02-21-2020, 08:12 AM
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From your description (ignoring the whole LUFS thing) I would say your tracks need some compression on them (most likely the drums, bass), then the 'master' needs some minor limiting/compression too.
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Old 02-21-2020, 08:54 AM
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You are starting with a bounced stereo mix, right? 24-bit? I.e., just doing the mastering as a separate step?

Check your master fader or any automation to make sure there's not something going on after the Maximizer (which is a limiter). And if the Elements version has it, set the upper limit to -1.0 with True Peak turned on.

Bouncing to non-lossy format should pretty well match that peak when measured independently. (I use Orban's free meter myself.) Any time I've seen weirdness in the peaks it's been because I somehow nudged an arrow key or something when I had some master out automation highlighted.

In the full Ozone (I'm back on 8), there's several options in the Maximizer about the type of limiting to apply - you can tinker with those, and also make sure to set Dithering in Ozone and not re-dither in the bounce, if that's also an option and you're bouncing out to 16-bit. At least, that's my workflow.

I also agree if there's uncontrollable peaks, you probably need some compression somewhere ahead of the master limiting.
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Old 02-21-2020, 09:18 AM
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There's another thing to consider: What is the "0" reference on your DAW? There are different standards. I say this because broadcast level standard is -20db. That is to say, when your meter shows "0," you are actually at '20. When you mix a good mix for this standard it comes out as -24 LUFS, and that is the signal density you seek for legal broadcast. It sounds as if your DAW, or the project setup within the DAW, is set for this standard. You mix reasonably conservatively and end up at -28.

Look into your project setup and check for a master level reference. If you are doing music you can set that to "0." However, I often mix music for broadcast, CD, and streaming. The practice there is to leave the project at -24 and mix the project there. Once you have the project mixed to broadcast standard you can take it into a mastering project and normalize it to full scale and then decide what LUFS you want to master at. Modern typical standard is between -10 and -12 LUFS.

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Old 02-21-2020, 09:40 AM
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Yes what Mike said AND

Backing up I am a little confused from your description. Can you post a screen shot of your mixer view for that project ?

Yes Master fader should be at (0). You do not mention the track faders? and for recording I have all my individual track faders set to (0) as well.
Personally I like to have both a master Bus track (Aux track) or "2 Bus", as it is sometimes called, and a Master Fader track. The reason is in Pro Tools the inserts on an Aux/Bus track affect the audio before the output fader, and on the Master Fader the insert affect is after the fader.

Also as Mike suggested (if you are not already doing it) and what I learned at Berklee was for multi instrument projects put an EQ on each audio and midi track, and a Compressor on each track or at least on each instrument Bus track (which I always use )
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Old 02-21-2020, 11:21 AM
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Thanks for the replies. No time to post screenshots today (gig tonight!) but will try tomorrow.

I'll try actually rendering the mix, then mastering.

I do have EQ & some compression on most of the individual tracks, and the drum mix bus, as well as some fader volume automation to handle a few hot spots. I didn't record particularly hot, but plenty of signal and most track faders are actually below zero, some by quite a bit. Then I have some light compression (a couple dB on the highest peaks) on the master, before Ozone and then Youlean.

I did see somewhere that, depending on how you measured, Reaper VU readings were actually -3dB. I think there's a switch for that somewhere. But Bob's comment about the 0 reference seems on-point. That certainly makes sense, with my seemingly good mix coming in just under -28 before the final Ozone maximizer. That might also explain why my -14LUFS rendering sounds fine, even though the VU meters are pegged.

KevWind, are you saying that you'd run everything to a "2 bus" and put your overall mix compression/EQ there, instead of the Master? What advantages does that have, or is it just a ProTools workflow thing?
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Old 02-21-2020, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chipotle View Post
KevWind, are you saying that you'd run everything to a "2 bus" and put your overall mix compression/EQ there, instead of the Master? What advantages does that have, or is it just a ProTools workflow thing?
Yes basically that is what I do . It is not a Pro Tools workflow thing per. se. And it is basically just my thing, based on how the inserts and signal flow works in PT. As noted in Pro Tools the FX inserts on the tracks (Audio, Midi, Aux and Bus ) are are being applied to the signal before it goes thru that tracks Fader ....On the Master Fader any insert FX are being applied after the Fader. Is that an advantage ? I think so.

Yes I put my Mix/ Master Compressor on the 2 Bus ( don't usually use a mix EQ)
That way I know that I am not clipping the 2 Bus with the Master Compression being applied before the fader .
The only thing I place on my Master Fader is a lookahead brick wall limiter (which I want to be applied after the fader ).

Here is screen shot of one of my session/project templates

Quick guide: all Guitar tracks are light blue , Guitar bus tracks are dark blue, VI Instrument are light green , Vocal tracks are magenta The parallel Reverb track (M 7) is purple , The 2 Bus (2 Mix) is orange, and the Master Fader is bright red

As You can see I have an EQ (EQ3 7-Band) on each audio & midi track, and on the "M7 Verb" Reverb Aux track, all in the top slot position Then on each Guitar Bus track I have a stereo Fairchild 670 plugin in the second insert slot . On the 2 Mix I have the Master Compressor (3U) also in the second insert slot and on the Master Fader I have the (L2007) brick wall limiter agin in the 2nd slot. ( the importance of the slot number position is because in PT there are key commands for tuning off and on all the FX in that insert slot number row, at the same time) So I uses the same format for all my templates

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Last edited by KevWind; 02-21-2020 at 02:54 PM.
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Old 02-21-2020, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
As noted in Pro Tools the FX inserts on the tracks (Audio, Midi, Aux and Bus ) are are being applied to the signal before it goes thru that tracks Fader ....On the Master Fader any insert FX are being applied after the Fader.
That makes sense, then. In Reaper, insert FX on the Master are pre-fader.

And... I just checked the Reaper master VU settings. Apparently the display offset is set at 14dB by default, for K-system metering. I don't have my project handy but it's possible it might be at 20 somehow, but there's 16dB for sure accounted for. Bob wins!

I feel a bit dumb for not knowing this, even having used Reaper for years. But I appreciate all the comments; they've helped me understand the mix processing/mastering step better in any case. Thanks!
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Old 02-22-2020, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chipotle View Post
but there's 16dB for sure accounted for.
Um, nope. Apparently the offset is just for the RMS part of the meter, so the peaks are still going over.

I'm confuzzled. I have compression/volume envelopes on the individual tracks to keep big peaks in check, but I simply can't seem to get the loudness much higher without getting overs.

I also thought that limiters were supposed to, well, limit. But upping the threshold in Ozone or even a simple hard limiter plugin cause the peak meters to go over. What's up with that?

It's not an unusual mix at all. I don't get what I'm doing wrong or not understanding.

FWIW, here's a screenshot of things playing. I tried routing everything through the "2 Bus" track, and put Ozone/limiters there, before hitting the master, but no difference from putting them right on the master FX. This shot is without any FX on the master or 2 bus, mixed so peaks are hitting around -2 on the master meter. (Peaks are the wider, inner lines on the master meter; RMS is the narrower outer lines. EDIT-- the master meter is at lower left.)

Last edited by Chipotle; 02-24-2020 at 12:02 PM.
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Old 02-24-2020, 07:46 AM
MikeBmusic MikeBmusic is offline
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I always render my mix to stereo 24 bit, then insert that in a new project to 'master'. If I notice issues in that, I can go back to the mix project, adjust, and re-render.
One time, at some point, my render screen's option to add the render to the mix project box got checked. Reaper adds it on a stereo track on the right side of the mixer view (bottom of the track view), so I never saw it there. I went back into the mix project to adjust something, and found my adjustments were not doing what I wanted at all, and my mix was still clipping on peaks. It was driving me crazy until I finally noticed the render tracks! DOH!!
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Old 02-24-2020, 02:59 PM
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I wish I was more familiar with Reaper

Couple of general thoughts:
Compression:
A good standard practice (always exceptions but) is compress but not raise the makeup gain to a higher volume level than when the comp is bypassed, but do use it to get the level to the same as when the comp is bypassed (to start with) Because with multi-instruments on multi tracks being compressed.
compression (w/o extra make up gain) will still tend to raise the overall "perceived" mix level slightly.

After doing that check and see if you can then add a limiter , raise the volume and not clip.

Also are you starting with subtractive EQ on instruments with similar frequency ranges , to carve out individual space for the different instruments ? if not try that also.

In Reaper can you set the meters to hold the peak reading ? That way you can tell if individual tracks are clipping (or close to it ) and deal with them individually,,because "sometimes" an individual track is what's causing the overall mix meters to clip (even though it may be clipping but is close enough that in the overall mix can be the issue)

Also: In Reaper can you set up the different types of plugins EQ , Comp, so that you can turn them all on and off (bypass) at the same time ? So you can reference over all FX results
If you can, then do that
So you can quickly turn off all compression and see if you still have the clipping problem when you add a limiter ?

And also you can tell if your overall EQ'ing is making your mix more clear and the different instruments more defined,,,, OR if the opposite is happening and the total EQ effect is making things less defined and muddy.
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Old 02-24-2020, 04:20 PM
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Thanks for all the ideas, Kev. I will try them out. I am using some subtractive EQ and other techniques to keep instruments separated (e.g. some scoop in the acoustic guitar to get it out of the way of the vocals, side-chain compressing the electric guitar with the vocals so it doesn't step on them, of course HPF on everything except kick/bass).

I did notice that most of my peaks were coming from the drums, notably the snare (surprise, surprise) but to bring those down significantly, I either had to reduce the volume so it was too low in the mix, or compress it so much that it sounded terrible. I may be able to tediously find the worst offenders and manually adjust them.

I can probably do all those things you ask about in Reaper, just have to figure out how.

Next stop is probably the Reaper forums. Again, I appreciate the help!
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Old 02-25-2020, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chipotle View Post
Thanks for all the ideas, Kev. I will try them out. I am using some subtractive EQ and other techniques to keep instruments separated (e.g. some scoop in the acoustic guitar to get it out of the way of the vocals, side-chain compressing the electric guitar with the vocals so it doesn't step on them, of course HPF on everything except kick/bass).
Actually HPF on both kick and bass closer to the very low end and possibly narrower Q cuts at a little higher low freqs (at different freqs. for the kick and bass, again to carve out space ) may surprise you.


Personally I prefer to compress the entire vocal directly with a relatively light settings, with a slow attack and slight makeup gain (so as to bring the vocal forward) . And if the electric is playing mainly lead riffs I try to have most of that happening between vocal phrases or riding the electrics volume manually where they overlap and have different midrange freq. cuts for each. Usually my vocal cut at 500 and the electric between 1k and 2k



Quote:
I did notice that most of my peaks were coming from the drums, notably the snare (surprise, surprise) but to bring those down significantly, I either had to reduce the volume so it was too low in the mix, or compress it so much that it sounded terrible. I may be able to tediously find the worst offenders and manually adjust them.
And that (may) be the issue. And if so a "global fix" is sometimes as you note a problem, and arguably not the solution.
As tedious as it my seem "riding the volume" (reducing only the highest peaks) is actually a time honored professional studio mixing method, and something well worth doing. And digital makes it much easier, and practice makes it much faster.




Quote:
I can probably do all those things you ask about in Reaper, just have to figure out how.

Next stop is probably the Reaper forums. Again, I appreciate the help!
Good luck
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Old 02-26-2020, 07:23 AM
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Something I noticed the other day with Reaper 6.0, can't say I remember having it happen with older version:

In my 'mastering' project, I inserted the 24 bit stereo file I had just rendered.
I put my usual Master Limiter and compressor with slight gain on the track, rather than the master, and when I adjusted the limiter to bring up the overall volume I got clipping on the loudest peaks right away. Took the plugins off the track and put them on the master and everything behaved the way it was supposed to.
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Old 02-26-2020, 07:43 AM
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A few years ago in the house where I work we discovered that it is possible to clip either the channels or summing bus in Nuendo. We do two things to prevent it:

We normalize clips to -0.1 rather than 0. Apparently the tenth of a db makes the difference.
When mastering, I run my look-ahead limiter with its gain makeup that can add more gain in the output channel, past the summing bus.

Bob
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