Do You Ever Feel Like Iconic Guitar Brand's 'offshore' Guitars Aren't The Real Thing?

[Wellington]

Such a snobby question, and though I have nothing against these guitars and I own a MIC Yamaha, as opposed to the more expensive MIJ models, and though I've been considering Guild Westerly guitars for a while, in my case I can't help but have that feeling of "it may be an awesome guitar, but it's not a REAL Guild . . ."
It's terribly snobby, and I wouldn't even own a USA Guild (because of cost, and me being a two job lower income guy trying to get his family by!) if it weren't for my amazing wife crowdfunding among family and friends for me 30th birthday to get the Guild . . .

But I felt this way before. I had seriously considered some made in Mexico Martins, and even though I'd be perfectly happy with it and I thought some of them sounded really good (road series) and I would totally buy one, I didn't see them as a 'real Martin'. In that case, it wouldn't have prevented me from buying a road series though.

Why is this an attitude? Does the location of something being made make it or not make it the real McCoy? Maybe, maybe not.

So back to Guild browsing. I'd like to try another smaller body guitar for the heck of it, like the M-20 or M-120. I can't afford either right now anyway, but the M-120 sounds just as good to my ears judging by the reviews, however I prefer the satin finish on the M-20. But inside, now having such a special USA Guild (for what it's worth, it's not about being made in the U.S for economic reasons or American jobs, I'm Canadian) I feel like the M-120 won't be the 'real McCoy', though it wouldn't be a deal breaker, I would just feel like there would always be a disclaimer attached to that guitar, that's it's not a USA Guild. It probably has to do with the original country of origin. For instance, I'm still saddened by Larrivee now being made in the U.S instead of Canada where it was birthed and grown, nothing against the U.S though.

Anyone else feel like this? Again, before I'm torn apart, I don't look down on any of these guitars as guitars, but I feel something is disconnected from the name essentially.

Obviously the argument against this notion is these guitars are still designed by the companies and made to spec in their own factories outside the U.S or Japan or whatever.

What do you think?

[Kevin Bishop]

Yeppers, everything you said. I struggled with it a lot. I looked at Martin, Taylor, Eastman, Breedlove really really hard. I also watched several factory tours. I wanted one made in the (lets not use, US, let's say "Parent Location") Parent Company.

-- Why doesn't the Parent Company make ALL the Guitars?
-- The Taylor factory outsourced from the Parent Location to a gig that started making guitar strings for them
-- "Chris" Martin from Martin said pretty much the same thing, they did some great things for us at the "other" place
-- They will never be honest from the Parent Company to say, "Yeah, well it is not "REAL" because if it were real, we would be making them at our Parent Location!"
-- All the BEST Luthiers work in the Parent Location
-- Terms like "Tonal", Grade XXX, "Sound Voicing" are all excluded from those NOT made at the Parent Location

-- Last, anyone who really knows about Guitars will know. My buddy said he has a Martin and I asked him what kind, he said it was a "Martin Sigma" I said, it is a wanna-be Martin. Just like buying a Porsche Boxster. It is a Porsche with panties, not a 911. (that sir was a line stolen from Ralphie from Sopranos).

Cheers!

[Robin, Wales]

Your emotional attachment to a guitar will certainly affect how you play it! So brand perception is relevant.

I love my Canadian made guitars. I have worked as a canoe guide and ski instructor on trips out there. I have a son who has emigrated to Canada. And we have the same Head of State from whom I hold a Royal Commission. All of which has nothing physical to do with the actual guitars I have but they do add to the story of them. And, as playing guitar is a creative art, that back story is sort of important.

[Rmccamey]

No shame in a "Made In" preference. I prefer Made in North America.

[fazool]

Yes I do..........but.....

I have Sterling Cutlass which is the Ernie Ball Music Man far east brand and it's downright fantastic. The older CT50 before they downgraded and cost reduced it further into a CT30.

I know it is not a Music Man - not the real thing but it is fantastic in it's own right.

[zmf]

Originally Posted by Wellington

Anyone else feel like this? Again, before I'm torn apart, I don't look down on any of these guitars as guitars, but I feel something is disconnected from the name essentially.

What do you think?

I'm trying to understand why you started this thread.

You seem conflicted about the whole thing. Do you what to be talked out of it? Or into it? Or neither?

Or to paraphrase a great writer -- it's the thing behind the mask?

[Emil]

Here in Sweden you’ll find worldclass builders.
- Fredholm
- David Sundberg
- Sandén
- Marklund
Heck even Larson Brothers was from Sweden. In other words i can get more then i need by just looking within our own boarders.

The grown up in me knows that i will get a perfectly good guitar from Mexico, Korea and now even China.
Still, guitar playing for me is rooted to the kid in me who wanted to be like the childhood heroes. I wanted to do and play what they did and played. And it’s that kid in me that still makes me want to pick up the guitar every day.
So on one hand the adult Emil is pragmatic and knows that you will in many cases get more for your money if you look outside the US.

But - guitarist hates change.
If the Martin does not have the pre-war sound we’re shy away.
The Les Paul sound the best if it’s made 1959.
If your Fender is post 62 - then slowly back away. Emotions often get’s the upper hand since that is was triggered us to play and then even local builders here in Sweden that i KNOW makes amazing guitars is out of scope.
Does that make sense?
No. But that’s how many of us work.

[colins]

Originally Posted by Wellington

What do you think?

"Offshore build"? Don't care. A good guitar is a good guitar. A good guitar builder is a good guitar builder, and wherever he or she works that builder deserves a chance at a satisfying job and an income.

Full marks to the brands that spread out to other countries. They create more guitars at more price points so more people can play music. And bonus points to the brands that bring new employment and skills to third world countries where quite often having access to clean water and regular electricity is more important than where a guitar was built. As an example I have a friend in Samoa that bought ukulele-making equipment for his (very poor) village, to create jobs where they just didn't exist before. That sort of thing means a lot more to me than whether a guitar from an iconic brand was built in its "home country".

[dyna]

Have you ever tried a:

Furch?
Lowden?
Atkin?
Dowina?

Anyhow, the often seen narrow-minded clinging to the thought that one countrys guitarbuilding
is superior is at best a little amusing...

That said, the Guild M-20 and M-120 is like comparing apples and oranges.
The M-120 is an ok guitar, the M-20 is superior in every way.

[RRick]

I prefer products to come from the parent company’s original location understanding people from that country have jobs, and hopefully take pride, building those products. I know top quality products can come from any country and it often makes more affordable alternatives available, which I appreciate.

I draw the line when products are manufactured where, in my opinion, human rights abuses occur. Due to “stonewalling”, I no longer try to determine where individual models are manufactured. If I find any company's product manufactured where I believe human rights abuses occur, that company is out of consideration. I once heard this called “voting with your wallet”. I know it limits my choices but it eases my conscience (and makes shopping easier).

[Coler]

My Martin SC13E was made in Mexico. It's an outstanding musical instrument, and a beautiful piece of craftsmanship. I suspect it would have to have cost more if made in Nazereth so I'm pleased to have gotten it for what I paid.

One of the best guitars I've ever owned was a Takamine GJCE-72 (spruce top, laminate back and sides) that was made in Korea. Incredibly beautiful tone and playability, for any price point. That one is out on loan to a friend since I got the SC13E, which has become my "gig" guitar, but I will never dispose of it. When I was looking for a 12 string, I trialled a Takamine GJ-72 series 12er made in China with spruce top and laminate sides versus a Martin GPC12PA (spruce top, sapele back and sides) made in Nazareth. The Takamine, at less than one third the price, sounded and played equally well, and in fact I slightly preferred it. The fit and finish of the Takamine was fantastic, and matched the Martin. I kept both guitars for a month so I am happy I gave them a fair trial (for the record I kept neither ultimately - still have not found my 12er)

So, nope, I don't judge them on where they were built and I have confidence in the maker achieving their own standards regardless. Of course, that doesn't mean that typically you can expect guitars at vastly different price points to be comparable...

I do try to purchase ethically, regardless of the origin of the goods I buy.

[Silly Moustache]

I'm a Brit. I bought my third guitar, a Harmony, in preference to a far superior Levin for the same price.

Why ? Because it came from the same place as the musicians I liked: the USA.

Because I was interested in mostly American music I sought out American guitars - not because they were good, few were, but I went through the lesser American brands : Gibson to Epiphone, to Guild and ultimately to a
Martin. I by-passed Hofners, Hoyer, Hagstroms, Levins, and British built options all perfectly good instruments.

Oh, and for mandolins? - Czech Republic!

We tend to buy the instruments we saw on the album covers of the music we liked. Lonnie Donegan played a Martin,

From Martins in the '70s to Collings in '99. Now? Eastman.

In 1968 the UK had a PR campaign called "I'm Backing Britain!" It was well meaning but economically naive. It failed.

The economy of all nations rely on international trade.

Now, more than ever it is obvious that every country can make pretty much anything, and well.

Apart from one - all my instruments are "foreign made" as are many/most things in my house.

The guitar was certainly developed considerably in the USA during the 20th century, but it is not an American invention, it belongs to the world.

I think we may need to search our rationales when buying an item, and remember that we are citizens of the world.

[RalphH]

Not really; I love my GS mini, its doesn't matter that it was made in mexico...

BUT generally the 'abroard' guitars simply aren't as good as the USA made ones. When a company splits their models its harder to make a direct comparison, but with Epiphone / Gibson you can A/B a hummingbird or a J45 and the epiphones are just not in the same league sound-wise (though generally more nearly made ). Then again, they generally have B&S and are encased in thick poly rather than nitro so perhaps that's not surprising.
Perhaps gibson has them deliberately overbraced to sound worse so they don't eat into the USA-made market...

Certainly, I don't see any difference in labor skill between the US and anywhere else; just better materials, parts and processes are generally used in the US because the labor cost is the largest part of a US guitar build so you may as well build it properly out of decent materials, rather than cut every corner you can to put it out at a certain price-point.

[_Mike_]

I believe (at least in the USA) the perception comes from the associated price point, perceived quality of manufacturing, and materials used.

Foreign made is generally lower priced: Made in Mexico vs Made in USA models.

I think there is also a school of thought that believes the foreign workers are not as skilled as the native country workers.

The sourcing of materials and components used (also driven by price) contribute to the perception as well

[Wellington]

Originally Posted by zmf

I'm trying to understand why you started this thread.

You seem conflicted about the whole thing. Do you what to be talked out of it? Or into it? Or neither?

Or to paraphrase a great writer -- it's the thing behind the mask?

I just want the discussion, I understand arguments from both sides

Originally Posted by colins

"Offshore build"? Don't care. A good guitar is a good guitar. A good guitar builder is a good guitar builder, and wherever he or she works that builder deserves a chance at a satisfying job and an income.

Full marks to the brands that spread out to other countries. They create more guitars at more price points so more people can play music. And bonus points to the brands that bring new employment and skills to third world countries where quite often having access to clean water and regular electricity is more important than where a guitar was built. As an example I have a friend in Samoa that bought ukulele-making equipment for his (very poor) village, to create jobs where they just didn't exist before. That sort of thing means a lot more to me than whether a guitar from an iconic brand was built in its "home country".

Originally Posted by dyna

Anyhow, the often seen narrow-minded clinging to the thought that one countrys guitarbuilding
is superior is at best a little amusing...

Originally Posted by RalphH

Not really; I love my GS mini, its doesn't matter that it was made in mexico...

BUT generally the 'abroard' guitars simply aren't as good as the USA made ones. When a company splits their models its harder to make a direct comparison, but with Epiphone / Gibson you can A/B a hummingbird or a J45 and the epiphones are just not in the same league sound-wise (though generally more nearly made ). Then again, they generally have B&S and are encased in thick poly rather than nitro so perhaps that's not surprising.
Perhaps gibson has them deliberately overbraced to sound worse so they don't eat into the USA-made market...

Certainly, I don't see any difference in labor skill between the US and anywhere else; just better materials, parts and processes are generally used in the US because the labor cost is the largest part of a US guitar build so you may as well build it properly out of decent materials, rather than cut every corner you can to put it out at a certain price-point.

Originally Posted by _Mike_

I believe (at least in the USA) the perception comes from the associated price point, perceived quality of manufacturing, and materials used.

Foreign made is generally lower priced: Made in Mexico vs Made in USA models.

I think there is also a school of thought that believes the foreign workers are not as skilled as the native country workers.

The sourcing of materials and components used (also driven by price) contribute to the perception as well

Thanks for the great discussion everyone, but I'll make myself clear again; I wasn't and am not suggesting that the 'abroad' or not 'parent location' guitars may not be as well built because they're built in China, Mexico etc, I emphasized that I believe these are fantastic guitars (though I agree the lower tier models built out of country are often missing some of the finer characteristics or a higher end guitar, this is intentional from the company I assume). The question has absolutely nothing to do with the build quality of the guitars, nothing to do with the people who build them other than the fact that they are built in a different country than the country of origin.

So, the Martin Road Series are fantastic guitars potentially, I don't doubt it for a second, but in my brain I don't really consider it a REAL Martin, the REAL Martin to me is built in the U.S.A.
I don't dislike Larrivee because Americans are building them now instead of Canadians, but it's just different in some ways the way I see the company (although in that case the whole company changed locations).
I could buy a Guild Westerly and love it, it could be the best guitar I own and I could absolutely love that it was made in China, giving other people a skilled profession making fine guitars that maybe before didn't have as good of a job (or maybe they're underpaid? Not sure), but I still might look at it with a disclaimer that it's not really a true Guild because it's not made in the 'parent company' location, the country it was birthed in and grown.