action lowered, now buzzing

[leeasam]

Originally Posted by Jamler

The saddle looks way too low... Get a new Tusq or Bone saddle and take it to a good 'Acoustic' guitar place... Don't take it to GC or some place like that.

I love my Martin OMC-15E. I did all the setup work on it myself and it plays like a dream. I often tune down a half step with it, for some reason the Hog top seems to respond sweetly to the lower freq vibes. I don't know what your guitar has been exposed to, but if it is a 2000's guitar taken care not to leave in high or low humidity situations, a neck reset shouldn't be necessary.

I have seen a brand new off the wall D45 that needed a neck reset and the saleman sent it back aftr seeing it. it does happen on occasion.

[blaren]

Originally Posted by bozz_2006

If it buzzes on fretted notes as much or more than open notes, the nut slots could be too low as well.

Pretty sure it's the other way around and that the nut has no effect on fretted notes.

I'd take a look at the neck relief. I realize that is not for adjusting action/string height but...from the photos that action doesnt even look all that low. Of course, getting rod of any relief would just make more buzz.
Oh oh...neck reset? Yikes.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Larry Pattis

Without knowing the actual string height at the 12th fret, and also an understanding of the relief and actual neck-angle, it's completely impossible to say if the saddle is now too low for the guitar.

Yes, there is not much saddle showing over the bridge. That fact, even with the buzzing you are reporting, only gives a very partial picture.

Going back to the shop where the work was done is appropriate, go over your concerns with the buzzing, and get educated on the specifics of your guitar.

Exactly .

[bozz_2006]

Originally Posted by blaren

Pretty sure it's the other way around and that the nut has no effect on fretted notes.

Yep, fingers were going faster than my brain was (sounds impressive, eh? But, sadly, not much of an accomplishment.)

[scottishrogue]

What happened to you is typical of what problems are caused by an inexperienced tech trying to do something that is above his level of training. Before you do ANYTHING with regards to the action, you MUST take some measurements and compare your results with what is considered "spec" and you should also check to make sure the neck is not twisted, curved, bowed or arched. The neck needs to be perfectly straight. Many people just sight down the neck, but it's much better to use the tool designed specifically to check the neck. Any tech should have a notched straight-edge. If the neck is convex or concave, doing anything with the saddle or nut in all probability will make things worse. For anyone that missed it the first time...the neck must be perfectly straight!!!

Only then can you look at other possibilities. You might need to reset the neck, and that takes a highly-experienced luthier to do it right. If you don't need a neck reset, and the string height is "spec" at the nut, then you want to look at sanding a small amount off the bottom of the saddle...just a wee bit at a time, so you don't take too much off. You then must reinstall both E-strings and remeasure both sides. If you go too far, that will cause FRET BUZZ!!!

I would go back to where you had the work done, and ask the tech exactly what he did. Did he make any adjustment in the truss rod? How much of an adjustment did he make? If his adjustment is greater than a 1/8 turn with his Allen wrench, it's too much at one time. After he made an adjustment, did he wait long enough for the neck to adjust to the new tension? Did he tighten the truss rod? Tightening will lower the string height. Did he turn the wrench clockwise? Was that adjustment made BEFORE sanding down the saddle? How much did he take off the saddle? He needs to mark this before starting to sand, and if he can't tell you, he doesn't know what the hell he's doing!!! You should demand he replace the saddle (free of charge) so the saddle height is the same as it was when you first brought your guitar to him. I would then demand a full refund, and you should take your guitar to someone with the proper experience. Of course, that's what I would do, but you are free to make those decisions on your own.

Glen

[GuitarLight]

I agree with the diagnosis of those above. Your saddle is now much too low. You will need a new one, or you could shim it with ebony strips.

[RappahannockRag]

Thanks for all of the responses and advice. The local shop that I took the guitar to has been going down-hill over the past several years. It was once the premiere acoustic shop in town, now I guess I will have to look out of town or to private luthiers for this type of work. I recently found out that one of the guys they have doing setups there is a local guy I was in a band with many years ago and I know for a fact he is not qualified or properly experienced to be doing that work. I'm not sure if he did the work on my guitar or not. I already took the guitar back once since the setup because I could immediately tell the B and high E strings were out of intonation after it was done, they adjusted it to correct that free of charge, though I don't know what they did. At this point I am just going to take it to someone else.

I don't believe that the nut was touched/altered during the "setup", it doesn't appear to me to be any lower than it was originally but I would have to ask them to be sure.

The fret buzzing really only occurs on the fretted strings. If I played gently with bare fingers it probably wouldn't be much of an issue. But, I play with finger picks and like I said, moderate force gets it buzzing so I can't really ever dig in.

The guitar was in need of humidification when I bought it. According to the owner it had been stored in its case in NY for many years with little playing time but no effort was made at humidification. There was no bow/mound on the top, no finish cracks and the frets were not sticking out at all, but after I put humidipaks in the case it dried up the first set in only a few weeks.

As far as determining whether a neck reset could be required, I do note that on the outside of the neck joint where the neck meets the body, there is a very tiny gap present, probably as thin or thinner than a sheet of paper. It is present on the low E side but not the high E. I'll take a picture and post it this evening.

[steveyam]

Without seeing it I cannot judge the quality of the job they did. However, quality aside, it seems the nature of the conversation or should I say instructions given to the shop was pretty much, "lower the action". That said, they lowered it. You don't like it. As a tech I sometimes get players come to me who are dead keen to get the action down on their guitar. Naturally, and without further guidance or specific measurements, one takes the action down to a low/lowish level. Then they try the guitar, strumming like Pete Townsend and say "It buzzes....." Aghhhhhh!!!!!

Standing outside of the problem it's difficult to judge. If they didn't do the job properly, and the truss rod is set incorrectly, then it may only take a touch on the truss rod to put it right. Saying that, adjusting the truss rod is not the way to set an amount of action, but if it's currently set incorrectly, then you could be lucky and it will also bring the action up a tad.

Whatever, by far the easiest fix is to install a tonewood shim made from rosewood or ebony. It's not just my opinion that it will make very little (like none) effect on the tone and if at a later date you want that guitar to have a lower action, you just remove the shim. Shims are used on new guitars by the very best, celebrated luthiers on the planet, so don't be swayed by the opinion of general forum talk - should that be negative to the use of a shim.

[dhalbert]

Originally Posted by RappahannockRag

As far as determining whether a neck reset could be required, I do note that on the outside of the neck joint where the neck meets the body, there is a very tiny gap present, probably as thin or thinner than a sheet of paper. It is present on the low E side but not the high E. I'll take a picture and post it this evening. If it does need a neck reset how much money would I be looking at?

Hard to tell about the gap, which may be nothing or something, but here are some good discussions about neck angle:
http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Musi...neckangle.html
http://www.fretnotguitarrepair.com/r...neck-angle.php

If you read these and the related pages on these sites (also see http://www.bryankimsey.com/), you'll be an informed consumer.

[Ned Milburn]

First, neck bow needs to be set properly. Then, I (others differ) adjust the nut slots to proper depth. Last, I lower the saddle. The range of heights that my players prefer is from 1.75 mm to 2.5mm (high E) and 2.25 mm to 3.5 mm on the low E.

Without knowing the neck bow and 12th fret action (and nut action, for that matter) it is tough to make an assessment. Some guitars have lower saddles than yours, but higher action (due to their neck/body alignment). Such an extreme case as I describe suggests the necessity of a neck reset, but this example serves to show that protrusion of the saddle from the bridge cannot be a determining factor in the overall action of the guitar.

If your guitar's neck is over-straightened, a slight loosening of the truss rod should yield a bit less buzzing.

[JLS]

Wrong. Relief is necessary.

[JLS]

If you bought this new, it's a warranty item, and should be free to you.

And, yes, that's what you're looking at; there's a simple equation of, Low saddle + high action= neck reset.

[steveyam]

This thread has dredged the bottom of the lake, nay cesspit to drag up meaningless, stupid, uninformed and downright wrong information. Let it be a warning to anyone reading it to realise that not all the answers are from experts, and that even 'experts' disagree on guitar set up matters. Where does that leave anyone wanting reliable, meaningful information? confused? I thoroughly agree, because for anyone trying to sort the wheat from the chaff - like this poor guy - it's a nightmare. I have never read so much Bee Ess in all my life.

Last word to OP, ignore everything on here and take it to a known, trusted, well recommended, pukka guitar technician and ask for his assessment, and if appropriate (given the politics of the first 'setup'), get him to put it right. If, after that, you are still interested in guitar setups, study a good book on the subject. Best of luck matey.

[redir]

If you ever come down to Blacksburg I'd be happy to take a look at it for you. But honestly in 20+ years of building and repairing guitars I can say that from that image that saddle is not too low if it indeed gets the action set properly. Martins are typically set up to have 1/8th inch of saddle height. At some point in the future you will need to reduce that height to no more than half of that which is about what it looks like in that image. Furthermore at another point in the future you will need to reset the neck back to the 1/8th inch saddle height standard and start the process over.

The action at the 12th fret from your image looks to me to be about standard or even a bit higher so it is curious as to why it's buzzing. My best guess would be you have no relief or you strum really really hard and may just have to accept it. One player can handle a little buzz while it drives another player absolutely insane. If you play hard you need to deal with high action or accept a bit of buzz, that's just the way it is.

Having said all that, it's really not easy to guestimate based on those images. We need numbers... What is the saddle height? What is the action height at the 12 fret on both e-strings and is there any relief? Map out the buzzing frets, map out which frets are high and which frets are low.

[leeasam]

these necks also I believe have the M&T joint with a single bolt. there have been issues with the joint loosening and bolt not holding it tight. It has been shown and discussed on this very board. could very well be just tighten the bolt? ( then fix the whole saddle issue again)