Repeatedly hearing or playing a song...

[Bob Womack]

I was watching The Doobie Brothers' 2019 video, Live From the Beacon Theater, in which they played through their second and third albums, Toulouse Street and The Captain and Me, their albums from 1972 and 1973, front to back. Front man Tom Johnston made a comment that they were happy to get the chance to play some of these songs again because they haven't played them since the albums came out. That got me thinking.

You know what that means, don't you? There are always songs on the records that the artists record, knowing that they will never play them in concert and may not hear again once they are recorded. That means that over a lifetime, their audiences will have heard those songs more than they ever have, and may be more familiar with them than the artists are... We as audience members who are also guitarists may have played those songs more than the original artists!

In that same Doobie Brothers video, Pat Simmons, their other front person, repeatedly kind of apologized that they weren't pkaying the songs exactly like the album versions (though they were really close) and explained that they had to go back and learn them. They decided to change them a bit because they had grown as musicians and thought they could do a tad better. It struck me as funny when I first heard it but now I understand it - their audience is probably more attached to the songs than they are, and they acknowledged it it.

Bob

[FrankHudson]

It's easy to view that sort of thing as one of the curses of success. Of course one should understand the audience's expectations and linkage to the recordings, but something from decades ago may not represent where the artist is now.

Doesn't sound like what the surviving band member are expressing here. More at their art is a business too, and audiences are part of how that works. But I often think of Joni Mitchell's quote about no one asking Van Gogh to paint one of his pictures again and again.

Bob Dylan (who like Mitchell, has earned any license if anyone has) gets flack for not playing his well known songs like the records, and commercially the "play the whole LP in order" tours are a thing, so they work for audiences.

As a songwriter I sometimes think when I'm writing something "Would I be happy performing this 100 or 1000 times if it was successful." In my case that's a very imaginary exercise! But the meaning of this exercise is similar to the question "Is this song really necessary?" -- a test for if you think the song is meaningful for you and potentially an audience. But even that question doesn't mean that you might not want to repeat the same approach to that song repeatedly decades down the line.

[Bob Womack]

I'll confess that something that occurred to me and worried me when I were a young man looking to make it in the music biz was the idea of one of my bands being "discovered" and putting out music, having a song I didn't like become famous, and then having to play it every night for the rest of my life.

There were some bands that I played in that were really successful twhere I didn't like the music we played!

Bob

[Glennwillow]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

...In that same Doobie Brothers video, Pat Simmons, their other front person, repeatedly kind of apologized that they weren't playing the songs exactly like the album versions (though they were really close) and explained that they had to go back and learn them. They decided to change them a bit because they had grown as musicians and thought they could do a tad better. It struck me as funny when I first heard it but now I understand it - their audience is probably more attached to the songs than they are, and they acknowledged it.

Bob

I used to have some of this reaction when I was doing music for money 30+ years ago.

If you record a song not long after it's written, you are catching the song in its earliest form. But if you then go out on the road and play the song for the next year or two, I found that new ideas would occur to me -- or serendipitous mistakes would happen -- and then I would adapt the song to these small improvements over time and many times the song would end up with a slightly different feel and sound.

Even if you don't play the song, as was the case for the Doobies, you still evolve as a musician over time. And then a year or two later, you wonder... Why did I play that phrase that way when I know this approach sounds so much better?

Some groups tend to write their songs, play them on the road for a while, and then record them, after they have made some of the modifications that seem to inevitably occur.

- Glenn

[Jim Owen]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

I'll confess that something that occurred to me and worried me when I were a young man looking to make it in the music biz was the idea of one of my bands being "discovered" and putting out music, having a song I didn't like become famous, and then having to play it every night for the rest of my life.

There were some bands that I played in that were really successful twhere I didn't like the music we played!

Bob

I remember Carl Perkins saying he’d had to go back to records to copy his own licks so that when he played live, he’d approximate what his audience expected. So I think I know what Tom and Patrick meant.

And it has to be weird playing stuff that you’d never intended to revisit (or perhaps sworn never to revisit).

If your band breaks up and “Time of the Season” suddenly breaks the charts, getting back together and touring even if you’re quarreling seems okay because the music is stellar. I could listen to Rod play those keys every night for a lifetime.

But what if you’re one of the Mysterions for Question Mark?

I have played songs I hated, but audiences loved. Or maybe because even if I didn’t like the song, a fellow bandmate loved it. That’s part of a gigging musician’s life. I’ve stopped playing some tunes if a fellow bandmate has said, “please, no, never, please stop that song.”

But I didn’t have to play every night for weeks on end.

Every time I hear “96 Tears” my heart goes out to those sidemen. I also feel for those forever trapped in an age-inappropriate genre, forever expected to sing only about cars, surfboards, and girls

[M19]

Would love to hear "Clear as the Driven Snow" live. My favorite on TC&M.

[RedJoker]

I know some people hate when performers aren't perfect but I LOVE when there are little hiccups. I find it helps remind me that we're all human.

I'm a big Avett Brothers fan and I went to a question and answer session with them. They had their instruments and after a question about one of their older songs, Scott jumped right into singing it. Seth just looked at him, chuckled and started playing along. After the first verse Scott paused and said, "I can't remember how the second verse starts!" Seth just laughed and said "I know, but I wanted to see you try!"

The funny thing is that the crowd started singing to help them along but they were singing the THIRD verses, not the second! Scott hesitantly started singing along until he was sure that it was actually the third verse, to which he reminded the crowd that they didn't remember it right either.

They eventually finished the mangled train wreck of a performance to laughter from all. It is a fun memory for me. I'm glad Bob started this thread so I could relive it a bit while trying to add to the conversation.

[Bob Womack]

Originally Posted by M19

Would love to hear "Clear as the Driven Snow" live. My favorite on TC&M.

In the video, Pat recalls writing that song. The subject? At some point in 1972-73 Pat came to the conclusion he had to stop taking drugs. It was absolutely clear to him... as clear as the driven snow.

Bob

[tinnitus]

Saw a (relatively) recent Heart concert on TV wherein Nancy Wilson got a little tangled up with that iconically cool acoustic guitar intro to Crazy On You. She paused for a moment, mumbled something like, "I used to be a better guitarist," and carried on brilliantly. Didn't detract from my enjoyment of the show in the slightest.

[imwjl]

Two of the times I saw Frank Zappa he was kind of bothered by the fan expectations for songs and his bands. As much as I knew them from the albums, at thought one of those performances the songs and the band added up to of the best live performances I'd ever seen. I was amazed by the talent the individuals had and how in the pocket or together they were - actually a better experience than a tour when it was more like the albums.

What @Bob brings up might also be why on occasion I really like some covers or live releases of songs that got much air play.

[Pura Vida]

Great thread. Expanding on part of your thoughts, personally, I love it when an artist changes a song from its original recording. It can breathe new life into a song, which can be refreshing for the audience, as well as the artist who's performing it.

Neil Young has made a career of it, essentially having electric and acoustic versions of many of his best songs. And more recently, St. Vincent is fabulous at reinventing her look and sound (I've said for years that she's a modern David Bowie), but also at changing up her songs in live performances.

Here are two live performances for her song, "Savior." The first has a bit of playfulness with the lyrics, while the second sounds much more desperate, even though the lyrics are the same.

ACL w/ live band:


Solo w/ piano: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdmSRfbjQlY
(playback is disabled, so copying full link)

[tinnitus]

Same kind of thing, though not a matter of forgetting...

Without getting too specific here, more than a few of my all-time favorite performers, IMHO, make it/made it a practice to re-write (and sort of butcher) their own super hits onstage:
- Paul McCartney
- Original Skynyrd
- Joe Walsh
- Led Zep

I guess megastars can do whatever they want with their own songs, but I often shake my head at intentional changes habitually made to live performances, when the original studio cut was... perfect.

Oh well, like I said, their songs.

[M19]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

In the video, Pat recalls writing that song. The subject? At some point in 1972-73 Pat came to the conclusion he had to stop taking drugs. It was absolutely clear to him... as clear as the driven snow.

Bob

Was the "snow" what I'm thinking it was?

[Bob Womack]

Originally Posted by tinnitus

Same kind of thing, though not a matter of forgetting...

Without getting too specific here, more than a few of my all-time favorite performers, IMHO, make it/made it a practice to re-write (and sort of butcher) their own super hits onstage:
...

I guess megastars can do whatever they want with their own songs, but I often shake my head at intentional changes habitually made to live performances, when the original studio cut was... perfect.

Oh well, like I said, their songs.

The Doobies alter a line in the song "Black Water" every night. In the line, "Mississippi moon won't you keep on shinin' on me," they substitute the name of the city they are in for "Mississippi." Hilariously, once when I saw them in my home town, Knoxville, TN. Amongst all the stops on the tour, Pat Simmons mistook Knoxville for Nashville, and the crowd was displeased. He corrected it the next time around and everyone was pleased.

Interestingly, I moved to Tidewater Virginia, where in 1974, their famed Doobieliner had burned to the ground at little Hampton Roads Regional Airfield while they were onstage in Norfolk. Every time I've seen them here I've expected for them to mention it.



Bob

[TeleBluesMan]

It could be worse. Mike Bloomfield had to endure calls for "Season of the Witch," even though that was on the side of "Super Session" on which he didn't play!