Matching Mics to Audio Interface

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

For versatility, I would suggest that any interface you might get should have separate line-in inputs, using a separate circuit path from any built-in preamps on their path toward the converters or monitoring circuits. You can tell if this feature is present in an interface because when using the line-in jacks (e.g., from the output of an external preamp), the gain controls on the interface do not change the level of the line-in input signal.

Here's an example, using the UAD Apollo. The UAD Console software lets you choose mic vs line (-10 or +4dBu). As you can see in the screen shot, the mic channels have gain, phantom power, pad, etc. Those set to line have nothing, since you're bypassing all that. Any channel can be set to mic or line. The preamps in the UAD are quite good, and you can also use UAD's unison preamps, which emulate various vintage preamps in the device. But you can also just bypass them if you have something you like better.

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[jim1960]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

The preamps in the UAD are quite good, and you can also use UAD's unison preamps, which emulate various vintage preamps in the device. But you can also just bypass them if you have something you like better.

I've been using UA products since the early UAD-1 days and I own about 80 of their plugins, although not the kind I'm describing below. I think they do a nice job on most things but I don't like the proprietary direction into which they're heading.

Prior to 2010, one of the biggest complaints about ProTools was that in order to use the software you had to own a Digidesign (later AVID) interface. UA seems to be mimicking what AVID finally moved away from. They released a daw last year (Luna) but in order to use the daw, you have to own a UA interface. On top of that, they're creating plugins that are proprietary to that daw. Once they get people invested into enough of the Luna-only plugins, it becomes very hard to move from UA to an interface made by someone else without taking a huge loss on those plugins that you will no longer be able to use. And the proprietary plugins seem to be their focus right now.

And if anyone is wondering if you can simply sell them to recoup some of your money, UA doesn't allow for the selling of individual plugins. You have two choices in that regard, you sell ALL your plugins or you don't sell any.

I still own a UA Octo satellite so I can still use the plugins I own, all of which are non-proprietary but, having recently sold my Apollo X16, I don't see myself ever going to back to a UA interface.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by jim1960

I've been using UA products since the early UAD-1 days and I own about 80 of their plugins, although not the kind I'm describing below. I think they do a nice job on most things but I don't like the proprietary direction into which they're heading.
.

Not trying to promote UA specifically, just demonstrate an example of a system that really bypasses the preamps. You can do the same with Apogee, and probably many others.

My favorite system was an RME AES-32 interface (only), then a separate A/D (Crainsong HEDD) and then external preamps. Total flexibility to choose each piece of the chain. I had to drop that when I got the trashcan Mac and PCI cards were no longer supported, and just decided to go with the Apogee Ensemble Thunderbolt, all-in-1, which is also very nice. I mostly use the Apollo just for the DSP, for the plugins - which have always been proprietary and required UA hardware as far as I know. They work great, so I'm happy to use them where they make sense. I've used the preamps/interface enough to know it works very well for me, too, but I'm better setup to use the Ensemble.

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Not trying to promote UA specifically, just demonstrate an example of a system that really bypasses the preamps. You can do the same with Apogee, and probably many others.

I didn't mean to imply you were. I just thought that should be out there since UA interfaces were brought up.

Originally Posted by Doug Young

My favorite system was an RME AES-32 interface (only), then a separate A/D (Crainsong HEDD) and then external preamps. Total flexibility to choose each piece of the chain. I had to drop that when I got the trashcan Mac and PCI cards were no longer supported, and just decided to go with the Apogee Ensemble Thunderbolt, all-in-1, which is also very nice.

The decision to not include PCIe slots in those Macs screwed up a lot of people. UAD PCIe cards really hit rock bottom on the used market when Mac did that.

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I mostly use the Apollo just for the DSP, for the plugins - which have always been proprietary and required UA hardware as far as I know. They work great, so I'm happy to use them where they make sense. I've used the preamps/interface enough to know it works very well for me, too, but I'm better setup to use the Ensemble.

I was talking about the plugins that are proprietary to Luna. For example, the Neve and API summing plugins cannot be used with any daw but Luna. I don't consider the UA plugins I own to be proprietary because I can use them on any daw. If you owned a UA satellite, you wouldn't need the Apollo.. You'd be able to use your UA plugins through any daw on any interface. In my case, I'm not running an AVID Carbon but I can still use all my UA plugins.

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Here's an example, using the UAD Apollo. The UAD Console software lets you choose mic vs line (-10 or +4dBu). As you can see in the screen shot, the mic channels have gain, phantom power, pad, etc. Those set to line have nothing, since you're bypassing all that. Any channel can be set to mic or line. The preamps in the UAD are quite good, and you can also use UAD's unison preamps, which emulate various vintage preamps in the device. But you can also just bypass them if you have something you like better.
...

Yeah, my Apogee Element 46 does the same thing, along with a computer application to control everything right on the screen. My old Digidesign 003 did too (i.e., the line ins did not run through the device's preamps), although it was controlled only with physical controls on the unit itself.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by jim1960

I was talking about the plugins that are proprietary to Luna. For example, the Neve and API summing plugins cannot be used with any daw but Luna. I don't consider the UA plugins I own to be proprietary because I can use them on any daw. If you owned a UA satellite, you wouldn't need the Apollo.. You'd be able to use your UA plugins through any daw on any interface. In my case, I'm not running an AVID Carbon but I can still use all my UA plugins.

Ah, I haven't had any reason to use Luna. I checked it out briefly, and saw nothing to make me change from any other DAW. It's got a long way to go to catch up with Logic, and probably a lot of others. I had a hardware analog summing device (Dangerous) for a while, and saw no benefit for what I do, so that aspect of Luna hasn't been interesting to me.

I got my Apollo with the intention of using it live - for better effects in a live setting. I quickly discovered how painful using a laptop on stage was, so the Apollo went in my rack. It's actually been handy for livestreams, since I can place plugins on the inputs easily and can use the UAD plugins I like. But for recording, I use the Apogee and the Apollo just functions as DSP during mixing.

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Ah, I haven't had any reason to use Luna. I checked it out briefly, and saw nothing to make me change from any other DAW. It's got a long way to go to catch up with Logic, and probably a lot of others. I had a hardware analog summing device (Dangerous) for a while, and saw no benefit for what I do, so that aspect of Luna hasn't been interesting to me.

Agreed on Luna. It's not where it needs to be yet. I may be wrong, but I don't even think they've made it so you can use hardware inserts yet. As soon as they released it, I recognized it for what it is... a money suck. It's a brilliant move on UA's part but it pushed me away.

As for summing boxes, I've yet to hear one that does anything worthy of the price. The Dangerous 2 Bus+ was the only one that grabbed my interest but not because of the summing. It has some fx adjustments on it that you don't typically see on a summing box and I thought those sounded interesting in the videos I've seen but there's not enough there for me to drop $3K on one.

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I got my Apollo with the intention of using it live - for better effects in a live setting. I quickly discovered how painful using a laptop on stage was, so the Apollo went in my rack. It's actually been handy for livestreams, since I can place plugins on the inputs easily and can use the UAD plugins I like. But for recording, I use the Apogee and the Apollo just functions as DSP during mixing.

I've long been a fan of Apogee going back to the Rosetta 200 days. If the software didn't intimidate me, I'd have bought a Symphony I/O MKII. a couple of years back. I was very tempted to ditch UA for the Apogee but because I never got on well with the UA Console software, I was worried I'd be trading a headache for a similar headache. I'm happy with the Carbon though. The only software I have to deal with is ProTools and that suits me.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by jim1960

. I was very tempted to ditch UA for the Apogee but because I never got on well with the UA Console software, I was worried I'd be trading a headache for a similar headache.

Probably true. To the extent I use them, I kind of prefer Console to the Apogee Control. Both seem limited compared to the RME software. Maybe it's just that I spent more time with it, but I miss the full routing matrix in RME's TotalMix, which just seemed more flexible and straight-forward. Fortunately, I don't really use either one very often, and Logic exposes the basic controls for the Apogee.

[SprintBob]

I really appreciate the participation of you all in this thread. I believe the best path forward for me is to consider replacing my current Scarlett 2i4 with an interface that has higher quality mic preamps that can be bypassed if in the future I want to add external mic preamps to the recording chain. Good options from UA, SSL, Apogee, and others will now be my focus of research.

I learned a lot here. Thanks again.

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by SprintBob

I really appreciate the participation of you all in this thread. I believe the best path forward for me is to consider replacing my current Scarlett 2i4 with an interface that has higher quality mic preamps that can be bypassed if in the future I want to add external mic preamps to the recording chain. Good options from UA, SSL, Apogee, and others will now be my focus of research.

I learned a lot here. Thanks again.

Good luck and happy shopping.

[KevWind]

Yes good luck remember GAS also stands for Gear Acquisition Syndrome

[ChuckS]

Originally Posted by SprintBob

I really appreciate the participation of you all in this thread. I believe the best path forward for me is to consider replacing my current Scarlett 2i4 with an interface that has higher quality mic preamps that can be bypassed if in the future I want to add external mic preamps to the recording chain. Good options from UA, SSL, Apogee, and others will now be my focus of research.

I learned a lot here. Thanks again.

Not sure what your budget might be and what level of 'higher quality preamps' you are looking for, but the Motu 624 or 828-es might be worth considering. I use my Motu Ultralite AVB (older and a bit lower end than the 624) as a standalone unit (use internal preamps / ADC) for things like on-line open-mics, but for recording I use external preamps and sometimes external preamps and external AD converters connected to it. It also has a very nice router built into it.

[anton]

Great discussion here. I'll throw another option in the audio interface mix if you are looking at upgrading, the RME Babyface Pro. I have had one for a handful of years and love it. Its USB powered, no breakout cable, everything is built into the interface. Two XLR inputs with pre's, and two line ins. Also an ADAT in, so you could get a preamp with ADAD out which would give you 8 more inputs or something like that.

I also have a pair of Gefell M300's, Michael Watts was at least partially responsible for my buying decision, I love the recorded tone he gets with them.

RME's driver support is supposed to be quite good, and their Totalmix virtual mixer is easy to use. Something worth considering if you are going that route.

The Apollo units also look cool though. Being able to try (and buy) their proprietary plug ins would be fun.

Next on the list for me is a preamp to give me some more inputs. That Sebratron is tempting...

[j3ffr0]

OP has some nice condensers. Hard to go wrong with those.

I felt like I got better sound when I moved from the Scarlet to the UA Apollo X4. However, I never plugged the Scarlet in since and did no AB comparisons.

[SprintBob]

OP checking back. Well I made a move and I went somewhat "big".

The robustness, simplicity, and performance of the Sebatron Axis 200VU Tube Mic Preamp as recommended by Jim1960 seemed too good to pass up so I ordered one from Soundpure that gets delivered tomorrow.

I came to the conclusion that I really need dedicated line in options totally separate from mic pre-amps on an the audio interface so I am replacing my Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 with the Motu Ultralite Mk 5 USB interface. This interface has six line inputs in addition to two mic inputs. The A/D converters on this interface have excellent specs.

My recording chain will consist of the mics - Sebatron - Motu - PC/Reaper. There is the option of mixing with the Motu's CueMix software and DSP capability. The other audio interfaces that were in play for me were the RME BabyFace Pro and the UA Apollo Twin & Solo models. The Motu seemed a better fit than the BabyFace for my needs and the reviews for the Windows/PC versions of the Apollo units seemed to be either love/hate (not so on the reviews of the same units when used with Mac OS).

I think I have bought the last mic preamps and interface I'll ever need. I'm looking forward to learning how to use these tools. Thanks again to you all who offered advice and recommendations.