Fan Frets

[StandardTuning]

I appreciate the reasoning behind fan frets - to improve intonation all along the fretboard. So why are not fan frets more common? For what they are designed to do I would think that they would be pretty much standard for high(er) end guitars.

Just curious.

[Rosewood99]

My understanding is it gets the greatest benefit when using alternate tunings. Since the majority of players don’t use alternate tuning, that would explain why it’s not used more.

[Wadcutter]

Originally Posted by StandardTuning

I appreciate the reasoning behind fan frets - to improve intonation all along the fretboard. So why are not fan frets more common? For what they are designed to do I would think that they would be pretty much standard for high(er) end guitars.

Just curious.

Uh, what’s a “fan fret?” 🤔

[AH Acoustic]

Originally Posted by StandardTuning

I appreciate the reasoning behind fan frets - to improve intonation all along the fretboard. So why are not fan frets more common? For what they are designed to do I would think that they would be pretty much standard for high(er) end guitars.

Just curious.

Here's an additional thought on why we don't see mass produced multi-scale guitars:

There's some variables with multi-scale guitars -- which include:

• how significant a scale difference of the 2
• where to locate the "neutral" fret (the one that is at 90-degrees to the neck)
• bridge angle vs nut angle

...and I'm sure many that I didn't think of.

These variables basically add up to a very complex guitar that needs to be tailored to an individual's preference -- somewhat of a challenging task for a large guitar manufacturer.

-a.h.

[AH Acoustic]

Here's a past AGF thread about fan fret (or multi-scale) guitars:

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=232033

[StandardTuning]

Great information, AH. Thanks.

[The Bard Rocks]

Originally Posted by Wadcutter

Uh, what’s a “fan fret?” 🤔

The nut and saddle are not parallel. The strings have a progressively longer scale from the High E down to Low E. This allows more precise intonation. Although they can look weird, when playing them you will adjust quickly or perhaps not even notice.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by StandardTuning

I appreciate the reasoning behind fan frets - to improve intonation all along the fretboard. So why are not fan frets more common? For what they are designed to do I would think that they would be pretty much standard for high(er) end guitars.

Just curious.

Hi ST

First of all, the purpose of a fanned fret guitar is not to improve intonation. I own a fanned fret I've had for 16 years, and I've played dozens of others by many builders.

There is nothing about the design of the 'fan' which promotes better intonation. In discussing this with builders, and experimenting on guitars, they face the same intonation challenges as with a normal scale conventionally built instrument. That's true of both acoustic and electric multi-scale guitars.

Buzz Feiten's experiments (modern fanned fret theory) were based on combining the short scale of a Gibson electric with the longer scale of Fender electrics. His intonation innovations come from compensating string length both at the nut and saddle. It only results in moving the 'normal' troubled intonation issues around to less played spots on the fingerboard. They are not accomplished by altering the scale of a guitar.

Intonation is going to be based on the accuracy and location of frets, and the compensation measures to the saddle (or nut) execution of installation by the builder. Compensation by a builder, or the tech taking care of the instrument can improve the out-of-the-box intonation.

Strings don't improve in intonation because of varying the scale length of strings.

Here's a picture of my guitar…a 2005 Bashkin OM - Myrtlewood/Italian Spruce - ¾" offset equally split between nut and saddle (each offset ⅜").

My scale length is 25" on the 1st string to 25.75" on the 6th string.

This makes the top two treble strings short scale, the 3rd string closes to 'normal' scale, and strings 4-5-6 progressively longer scale.

Top…


Back…


From the nut to the bridge…

A fanned fret guitar can be equally offset at opposite ends, or the fan can be fully executed at only one end of the fingerboard (which can make fingerings challenging at the extreme end).

They can be built entirely short scale, entirely long scale, or split between. I've played (attempted to play) a full 3" offset split equally, and it's application was for tapping in altered tunings. Forming chords in standard tuning on it was an exercise in futility, and in many instances, impossible!

One effect of the fanned fret (in the instance of MY guitar) is to lighten the tension, and sweeten the tone of the trebles, and increase tension and enhance the bass.

It is designed to allow lower tuning of the bass strings without bumping up the weight of the strings (to avoid buzz or lose power). In fact this guitar was designed/built to use lighter strings. It sounds full and warm, and I usually string it with .011 - .052. I can drop it all the way to C on the bass E string without it buzzing or going flabby.

Another - unexpected - advantage is that as one plays on the lower end of the neck (toward the nut) chord fingerings and hand position naturally lean/slant in a natural position, and at the upper end (beyond fret 12), the hand positions rotate naturally in favor of fingerings 'up-there'.

These are the main 'facts' (with very brief explanation).

Hope this adds to the discussion…

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Rosewood99

My understanding is it gets the greatest benefit when using alternate tunings. Since the majority of players don’t use alternate tuning, that would explain why it’s not used more.

Hi Rosewood…

While people who use alternate tunings love multi-scale guitars, I know of two builders who always build either ¼" or ³⁄₁₆" equal fan into all their guitars as part of their 'design'. One of them even builds slightly asymmetrical bodies on many of his instruments.

It has to do with getting better tone, and improving playability.

Multi-scale is neither new (as in 20th century) or always pushed to the extremes.

And it comes in 'waves'. It was becoming more popular around 2005 when mine was built, and there is a resurgence now. The North American Guitar has many videos of fanned fret guitars played in standard, or Dropped D (which is normal tuning for many players).

Hope this adds to the discussion…

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Wadcutter

Uh, what’s a “fan fret?” ��

Hi W-c…

Here's a picture of my 2005 Bashkin, fanned-fret OM.

Notice the nut and saddle are wider at the bass strings, and narrower at the treble strings forming a 'fan'. Our eye perceives the 'fan' due to spreading fret wires along the fingerboard.

Fanned fret guitars come in many sizes and makes (acoustic & electric). Some are extremely fanned, and others barely noticeable (visually).

Up to an equally split 1" offset, they are very easy to adjust to when playing.

I've handed my ¾" offset guitar to players who played it for several minutes before they even noticed it was 'unusual'.

And when they do finally notice, it's because they see the fan. The fingerings feel very natural.

In fact the most common comment is "This guitar plays so easy"…

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by AH Acoustic

Here's an additional thought on why we don't see mass produced multi-scale guitars:

There's some variables with multi-scale guitars -- which include:

• how significant a scale difference of the 2
• where to locate the "neutral" fret (the one that is at 90-degrees to the neck)
• bridge angle vs nut angle

...and I'm sure many that I didn't think of.

These variables basically add up to a very complex guitar that needs to be tailored to an individual's preference -- somewhat of a challenging task for a large guitar manufacturer.

-a.h.

Hi a.h.
There is no one-size-fits-all to even normal guitars. Scale length is variable from short scale, Gibson scale, Parlor scale, Classical Scale, Fender scale, long scale, and Baritone scale…etc

But most manufacturers settle on predetermined scale lengths for their differently scaled guitar models.

Variations on the theme is where luthiers enter the picture.

Where the perpendicular fret is located is determined by how equal the offset is. If the offset is equally distributed, the perpendicular fret is in the middle of the fretboard (around the 8th-9th fret on a 21 fret fingerboard). Is the goal to enhance features (bass, treble etc). Is the goal to reduce string tension without losing bass?

After discussing these wonderful alterations with many luthiers, technical challenges come in redesiging the headstock if there is offset at the nut & redesigning and relocating the bridge.

I'm not sure how much extra work comes with building it, but there is extra work…more hours (and sometimes experimentation).

Part of the reason for luthiers being the main source for fanned fret instruments, is the variables.

I've played versions of Michael Bashkin's fanned fret guitars where the scale was 25.5"-26.25" in length. On another I played, ALL the fan was at the bridge, so the first 5 frets were 'normal' angles, but the tonal and tension benefits of the fanned design were present [/i](the player doesn't play above fret 5 ever)[/i].

I know Michael Bashkin and I had several in depth discussions before, during and after the build of my fanned fret. And even though I had him build as close a copy possible of the neck profile of my Olson, we discovered after-the-fact that the fingerboard is slightly narrower because of the fan (less than ⅟₃₂ inch), but the string spacing is still conventional.

AFFORDABILITY - There was an attempt made with Avian Guitars (I think they are still building them). They offered 'preset' fanned fret options without being able to customize them. Don't know if that's still true.

They are the only 'affordable' guitar builds I know of for acoustic guitars built with fanned frets.

[Rosewood99]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Rosewood…

While people who use alternate tunings love multi-scale guitars, I know of two builders who always build either ¼" or ³⁄₁₆" equal fan into all their guitars as part of their 'design'. One of them even builds slightly asymmetrical bodies on many of his instruments.

It has to do with getting better tone, and improving playability.

Multi-scale is neither new (as in 20th century) or always pushed to the extremes.

And it comes in 'waves'. It was becoming more popular around 2005 when mine was built, and there is a resurgence now. The North American Guitar has many videos of fanned fret guitars played in standard, or Dropped D (which is normal tuning for many players).

Hope this adds to the discussion…

My understanding is that it’s primarily to get better tone and playability with alternate tunings. Not saying that aren’t other uses for it but that’s what I’ve always been told is the number one benefit.

[Rosewood99]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

They are the only 'affordable' guitar builds I know of for acoustic guitars built with fanned frets.

Eastman offered, (or used to offer, not sure if they still do), a fan fret guitar that was at about the same price point as Avian. I used to own an Avian and it was fine guitar for the money.

[jklotz]

Originally Posted by Rosewood99

Eastman offered, (or used to offer, not sure if they still do), a fan fret guitar that was at about the same price point as Avian. I used to own an Avian and it was fine guitar for the money.

I have one. An 822ce ff. I'm pretty sure they still offer it, but they seem to be rare. It's a nice guitar. It's 1/2" fan, going from 24.9" to 25.4". It's got a sound port which I really like. I still find that I need to use bluegrass gauge strings for the alternate tunings I use, sometimes down to C on the low E string. It has an engleman top and eir b&s's. I use it exclusively for alternate tunings. Mine came with an LR Baggs Anthem installed and I use it for gigging. I don't notice it much when playing, but a 1/2" fan is not all that severe I guess.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Rosewood99

My understanding is that it’s primarily to get better tone and playability with alternate tunings. Not saying that aren’t other uses for it but that’s what I’ve always been told is the number one benefit.

Hi Rosewood…
I'd describe the benefit as a fanned fret doesn't cause side-effects when downtuning like a standard 25.5" scale might. I'm not sure if I'd describe it as improving tone. And I think we might be describing the same thing. You are saying it improves tone, and I'm saying it doesn't deteriorate the normal tone of a guitar.

A fanned fret makes a great standard tuning guitar as well. But a great number of great professional players do not have fanned fret guitars and play in DADGAD all the time. They find other ways to deal with tone and string tension.

Personally the biggest 'difference' is the fanned fret allows me a wider range of tuning options without deteriorating the tone or action or changing string weights. I can use the same guitar to play over a two full step range. I can retune from standard all the way down to open C on custom light strings.

And a 'normal' scale guitar will usually allow downtuning strings from standard to DADGAD without changing string weights. It's when you start tuning to C on the 6th (and tunings based on that) that you may need to bump string weights up one notch.

When you have even a moderate ½" offset in a fanned fret you can downtune to CGCGCD (or other C tunings).

A lot of solo players who don't have a dedicated downtuned guitar, and want to retune on the fly for both standard and downtuning, just bump their string weight up one notch and then downtune the whole guitar ½ step below 'standard' and build their other tunings off being tuned ½ step low.

It works quite well. In fact Phil Keaggy has been doing that for the past 20 years for all his solo work.