pentatonic, CAGED etc clear guide and maybe exercises

[Starter]

Hi,

I've been trying for a while to figure out the relationship between chords, the CAGED system, pentatonic and other scales, etc. I wonder if people have advice for a clear and reliable resource.

All the resources I've encountered are pretty confusing. They talk about "E chords" when they mean "E-shaped chords"; they identify the "boxes" by numbers, but there seem to be at least two understandings of what box #1 is (the E shape or the G shape). The final straw was discovering that what a blues player might call the "Long A" is considered a CAGED G-shape; makes total sense NOW, but had me confused for a really long time.

I'm sure getting there on my own is its own reward, but if anyone has a sure fire guide or introduction please say. Ideally it would be one you could listen (and watch) to as well as read.

Many thanks,
will

[birdsong]

I don't know if Justin (Justin's Guitar) does CAGED etc but you can take a look. If he does, then I think you'll be happy with his stuff.

I've listened/played along with a few song lessons of his. And tuned into a couple in-depth harmonic analyses of some jazz songs. I really enjoy his style. And he made what can be a bit "dense" (in jazz harmony) clear, and he's entertaining in a light way. https://www.justinguitar.com/

For a bit more entertainment, check out Marty. https://www.martyschwartzguitar.com/

Again I do not know he covers your topics of interest but I've tuned into some of his YouTube videos for songs, as well as some Blues stuff (which is a lot of pentatonic, so....... surely Marty covers all this stuff as well).

Marty can take a little time to get to the point but he gets there. Conversely, he will quickly get to it then dwell on it. But, again he's entertaining and I think overall does a good job.

I've also enjoyed a few song arrangements by Lorne Hemmerling. He offers lessons on broader musical concepts (e.g. Pentatonic) as well.
https://hubpages.com/@lornehemmerling

I've tuned into others but of course there are many out there. I don't remember them all. There's a woman in Austria I've enjoyed. Another in France........ another jazzer in Denmark......

John

[JonPR]

Try this to start with:

|-3-|---|---|-5-|---|---|---|---|-R-|---|---|---|-3-|---|
|---|-R-|---|---|---|-3-|---|---|-5-|---|---|---|---|-R-|
|-5-|---|---|---|---|-R-|---|---|---|-3-|---|---|-5-|---|
|---|---|-3-|---|---|-5-|---|---|---|---|-R-|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|-R-|---|---|---|-3-|---|---|-5-|---|---|---|
|-3-|---|---|-5-|---|---|---|---|-R-|---|---|---|-3-|---|
 \_____C_______/     \______G______/     \_____D_______/
             \____A____/         \____E____/     \_____C......

(The numbers show the chord tones, root-3rd-5th.)

You recognise the 5 shapes there? They would give the chord of that sound if the leftmost fret in each shape was either 0 or 12. (I.e., they're based, of course, on the 5 cowboy shapes we all learn as beginners.)

As an overlapping series, as shown, those 5 shapes all produce one major triad arpeggio pattern, and which chord it is (out of the 12 possible ones) just depends on where on the fretboard you start the pattern.

Eg., you want an F chord? Start with the "E" shape on fret 1, and work up through the D, C, A, and G shapes to the next E shape (fret 13).

My tip is, don't number the shapes - there's no need (and it easily gets confused with fret numbers, and other uses of numbers). Just learn where to find the root notes for any chord you want.

The beauty of this system is not only that any one major chord is playable anywhere on the fretboard, but you can pick any fretboard position and play all 12 major chords, only shifting a fret either way now and then.

Plus, if you know the associated scales for each chord in open position (and you should!), those patterns transfer up the neck with those shapes too.

[tbeltrans]

Here is a link to a paper I wrote that gives rather complete coverage of the CAGED system, and coverage of the 5 major and pentatonic scale forms. There is a whole section on daily exercises to get the concepts into your fingers, as well as a complete background coverage of the music theory for simple diatonic harmony, logically presented. It is all free and always has been.

https://www.akordi-online.com/sites/...ody-Guitar.pdf

There are a number of other links to it, but this one seems to work just fine.

I wrote this back in 1995 and chose to use text since there wasn't a predominant mature interchangeable file format for word processor software yet that I felt we could rely on to be around in 10 or 15 years. Over the years, I have gotten a number of emails from people in various countries that used this document, so I hope it still proves helpful.

Tony

[Deliberate1]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

Here is a link to a paper I wrote that gives rather complete coverage of the CAGED system, and coverage of the 5 major and pentatonic scale forms. T

Tony, I am not the OP but am in a similar situation. I read the introduction to your work last evening and plan to spend some quality time workig my way through it. I'll be in touch some years fro now once I have completed it....
Thanks for sharing it.
David

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by Deliberate1

Tony, I am not the OP but am in a similar situation. I read the introduction to your work last evening and plan to spend some quality time workig my way through it. I'll be in touch some years fro now once I have completed it....
Thanks for sharing it.
David

Thanks David. If you have ever seen the site lickbyneck.com, he had (and maybe still has) the paper on his site. He wrote for permission to have his friend reformat it as you now see it, saying that the paper helped him get started with arranging. If you want to learn many tunes arranged for solo fingerstyle guitar, check the site out.

These days, there is much available about the CAGED system, but it can be confusing trying to follow a logical train of thought from beginning to end with the materials provided for free. There are tons of youtube videos to be had on the subject too. Hopefully, my paper will still be helpful in today's world since I did try to lay out a complete and logical picture.

The CAGED system is sometimes controversial in that some will claim it can be a crutch. That concern is certainly justified IF one stays locked within those boxes formed by the CAGED system. What should happen is that gradually you begin to see the fretboard as an entire entity, with the CAGED system being "training wheels" that eventually are no longer needed. Used in that manner, I think that the CAGED system is one of several such systems that can be helpful getting off the ground and into exploring the fretboard.

Tony

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by Starter

Hi,

I've been trying for a while to figure out the relationship between chords, the CAGED system, pentatonic and other scales, etc. I wonder if people have advice for a clear and reliable resource.

All the resources I've encountered are pretty confusing. They talk about "E chords" when they mean "E-shaped chords"; they identify the "boxes" by numbers, but there seem to be at least two understandings of what box #1 is (the E shape or the G shape). The final straw was discovering that what a blues player might call the "Long A" is considered a CAGED G-shape; makes total sense NOW, but had me confused for a really long time.

I'm sure getting there on my own is its own reward, but if anyone has a sure fire guide or introduction please say. Ideally it would be one you could listen (and watch) to as well as read.

Many thanks,
will

Hi Will, There are loads of explanations of these and other basic theory aspects - but I think that the best way to understand these is via a face to face session with a sympathetic teacher. with some written info supplied to work through.

Over the last couple of years, I found myself working through these with a number of my zoom clients and I see furrowed brows suddenly "get it" when I show them my way to explain them.

If interested, I'd be happy to help ... face to face, via zoom.

[Ceabeceabe]

If you like podcasts, Desi Sena’s free podcasts do a good job talking about the relationships between chords, scales and chords, modes and chords etc. I tend to skip his podcasts discussing patterns. He explains stuff orally and by playing his guitar.

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by Ceabeceabe

If you like podcasts, Desi Sena’s free podcasts do a good job talking about the relationships between chords, scales and chords, modes and chords etc. I tend to skip his podcasts discussing patterns. He explains stuff orally and by playing his guitar.

Desi Serna does a really good job of explaining all that the OP asked about, probably one of the best if not the best. He has two books and a couple of videos that explain things really well, including the CAGED system.

Tony

[TBman]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Try this to start with:

|-3-|---|---|-5-|---|---|---|---|-R-|---|---|---|-3-|---|
|---|-R-|---|---|---|-3-|---|---|-5-|---|---|---|---|-R-|
|-5-|---|---|---|---|-R-|---|---|---|-3-|---|---|-5-|---|
|---|---|-3-|---|---|-5-|---|---|---|---|-R-|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|-R-|---|---|---|-3-|---|---|-5-|---|---|---|
|-3-|---|---|-5-|---|---|---|---|-R-|---|---|---|-3-|---|
 \_____C_______/     \______G______/     \_____D_______/
             \____A____/         \____E____/     \_____C......

(The numbers show the chord tones, root-3rd-5th.)

You recognise the 5 shapes there? They would give the chord of that sound if the leftmost fret in each shape was either 0 or 12. (I.e., they're based, of course, on the 5 cowboy shapes we all learn as beginners.)

As an overlapping series, as shown, those 5 shapes all produce one major triad arpeggio pattern, and which chord it is (out of the 12 possible ones) just depends on where on the fretboard you start the pattern.

Eg., you want an F chord? Start with the "E" shape on fret 1, and work up through the D, C, A, and G shapes to the next E shape (fret 13).

My tip is, don't number the shapes - there's no need (and it easily gets confused with fret numbers, and other uses of numbers). Just learn where to find the root notes for any chord you want.

The beauty of this system is not only that any one major chord is playable anywhere on the fretboard, but you can pick any fretboard position and play all 12 major chords, only shifting a fret either way now and then.

Plus, if you know the associated scales for each chord in open position (and you should!), those patterns transfer up the neck with those shapes too.

Might help to point out that the open notes start the diagram.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by TBman

Might help to point out that the open notes start the diagram.

But they don't.
Or rather, they only do that when the chord in question (produced by all 5 shapes) is C major.

I.e., the whole point in me not attaching fret numbers (or note names) was that the pattern is movable.

But I guess I should have made that clear, so thanks - hopefully it's clear now!

[hubcapsc]

Originally Posted by JonPR

But they don't.
Or rather, they only do that when the chord in question (produced by all 5 shapes) is C major.

I.e., the whole point in me not attaching fret numbers (or note names) was that the pattern is movable.

But I guess I should have made that clear, so thanks - hopefully it's clear now!

I reverse engineered the shapes, long before there was an innernet. I didn't know
what I'd found, but I knew it had something to do with "keys" since I could move the
shapes to different places to "sound right" with different songs I'd play on my
stereo.

There's seven notes. Find them between the 5th and 7th fret. C is "1" and B is "7".
C-D-E-F-G-A-B... once you find them, ditch "4" and "7". That's the Pentatonic
scale in C. There's more than one octave's worth to find, so don't stop until you've
found all of them between the 5th and the 8th.

One thing to do is move that shape you've found up and down the neck
to be playing the Pentatonic scale in other keys, where the numbers become
associated with different notes in the logical way that makes sense.

Another thing to do is stick to playing it in C, but look for those same notes between
the 2nd and 5th frets and and between the 7th and 10th frets. Then you'll know
three of the five "shapes".

After that you can find the other two shapes. And also you can figure out which
Cowboy chord is embedded in each shape.

-Mike

[tbeltrans]

The CAGED system has been around a long time. Joe Pass taught it at his seminars and I am sure many before him did likewise.

Another, more compact system utilizes the E, A, and D shape triads since they all share the same voicing:

3
1
5

Plane Talk uses that. You can easily find the major scale around these shapes and proceed to move around the fretboard from there.

I am sure there are many such systems, so find one that works the way your mind works and go with that.

Tony

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by hubcapsc

I reverse engineered the shapes, long before there was an innernet.

Right, me too. Before computers, let alone before the internet! Even before there were things like guitar instruction magazines.

The way I got it (if I remember right, it was over 50 years ago!) was from using a capo. I'd have a capo on 3, playing an Am chord, and thinking ... OK I can play that as a barre shape, making Cm.

Or a capo on 5, where a C shape makes an F chord. I know this was really early in my progress, because when I played that F chord without the capo (x-8-7-5-6-5) I remember thinking "hey, this is so much easier than that 1st fret barre shape! I'm going to play all my F's this way...." I didn't in the end, but it was that realisation that unlocked the "system".

Of course, it isn't really a "system" anyway. It's just the way the fretboard is. Because I knew my major scales in open position - and how they fitted around the cowboy chord shapes - I could easily transfer scale patterns up the fretboard too, fitting them around the relevant chord shape. F# major scale? Easy! Just put that "C" shape on fret 6 (between frets 6-9) and put the "C" scale pattern around and between it. No-brainer....

It was many years (decades) before I discovered people selling the idea as a "method". Hey, I could have made some money!

[tbeltrans]

CAGED is referred to as a "system" because it is a systematic means of seeing the fretboard. It isn't the only system. It seems that many jazz players come up with their own ways of seeing the fretboard and will also refer to these as "systems" for the same reason. Discussing such semantics can use up a lot of otherwise useful time so I think my part of this conversation is done. I am glad that one person got some use of information I posted. JonPR posts tons of useful information, and is probably the main reason I continue to check this section out.

Tony