Bone saddle too bright?

[hat]

Over the weekend I replaced the Micarta saddle on a IRW dread I recently finished with a bone saddle. Now it seems much too bright and 'zingy'. Strings are EJ17's. Saddle is compensated, with good peaks on each string. Should I go with different strings, or do I need to go to a different saddle material. I'm pretty sure the saddle is fitted well, but I do want to pull it and check the bottom for flatness. Any suggestions?

[lowrider]

Yes, every guitar is different. I had the same thing happen with a MartinX GP. I took out the under-saddle transducer and it sounded really good with the tusq saddle. Next, I made a new bone saddle from a blank, thinking that this was just going to be wonderful. It was horrible; brass, bright, nasty. I put the original saddle back in and it's been just right ever since.

[Groberts]

Originally Posted by hat

Over the weekend I replaced the Micarta saddle on a IRW dread I recently finished with a bone saddle. Now it seems much too bright and 'zingy'. Strings are EJ17's. Saddle is compensated, with good peaks on each string. Should I go with different strings, or do I need to go to a different saddle material. I'm pretty sure the saddle is fitted well, but I do want to pull it and check the bottom for flatness. Any suggestions?

That happens. Some like the additional sparkle. Some find it brighter and perhaps less musical. I am curious about what make and model guitar is it?

A friend of mine who is a gigging Professional for a living told me after swapping Tusq (Micarta) to Bone, he switched back and prefers the synthetic saddle.

[gmel555]

Over the years I've replaced 5 or 6 synthetic saddles with bone. In all cases except one bone was a noticeable improvement. The exception is my Larrivee Dred (Sitka over IRW) which came with a stock Tusq saddle. Just as you experienced, it was just too bright to the point of harsh, and to such an extent that I didn't even bother trying other strings.

There have been similar comments on AGF. IMHO bone is ALMOST always a better choice but there are exceptions. You might want to try Tusq on that guitar in place of the micarta, I think its properties are somewhere in between micarata and bone. (Tusq and micarta are not the same.)

[ManyMartinMan]

My biggest question is why did you change the saddle in the first place? Any change would likely be towards brighter.

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by ManyMartinMan

My biggest question is why did you change the saddle in the first place? Any change would likely be towards brighter.

I found the OP's comments about the saddle making the guitar brighter interesting. I don't question that this is what he is hearing. It could be a number of factors. But I've changed 3 Taylors from TUSQ (2) and Micarta (1) to bone and found the change to be warmer and richer, not brighter at all.

[Bridgepin]

Originally Posted by hat

Over the weekend I replaced the Micarta saddle on a IRW dread I recently finished with a bone saddle. Now it seems much too bright and 'zingy'. Strings are EJ17's. Saddle is compensated, with good peaks on each string. Should I go with different strings, or do I need to go to a different saddle material. I'm pretty sure the saddle is fitted well, but I do want to pull it and check the bottom for flatness. Any suggestions?

I had the same experience with my Taylor 810 LTD when I switched out the Tusq saddle.

What type of strings are you using?

[L20A]

Not all bone is the same.
You may want to try a different bone saddle to be sure.
I have changed several guitars synthetic saddles to bone and in most cases loved the results.
Recently I tried some ebay Chinese bone saddles and I have to say that I am not impressed with them.
Be sure to get quality bone saddles from a reputable dealer if you want the best sound.

[AcousticDreams]

Before you switch back, There are a few other possibilities that might help out. Changing out bridge pins first, is certainly a cheap and fun experiment. There is a world of different wood bridge pin materials that will possibly gently subdue-tame some of the high end harshness you are hearing.

Try Cocobola Bridge pins from LMII for only $8.38 and shipping is free I believe.
https://www.lmii.com/bridge-pins-and...-set-of-6.html
Or even Indian Rosewood for even less at $5.49
https://www.lmii.com/bridge-pins-and...-set-of-6.html
Not much to loose if it does not work for you.

I am one of the few that believes that the Nut also makes a difference in tone. Possibly what you are hearing could be that Micarta and or Tusc may not work well with bone combinations. I have not done that much testing in this area, however I believe that Synthetic materials tend to project more fundamentals, and bone tends to let more overtones or harmonics. It may just be that both Nut and saddle & pins needs changing at the same time. Certainly a much, much more expensive endeavor of course.

And finally, sometimes it takes time to understand the new tone. By this I mean it is sometimes a simply adjustment of where you pluck the note on in relation to the soundhole. And inch or two in either direction can make quite a difference in tonality. Even when you change to a new brand of strings, sometimes it takes a day to adjust-understand the new tone you are hearing and how to play with that tone.

What ever the final results, enjoy the experience of experimenting. ( I might have to make that my tag line "Enjoy the Experience of Experimenting" LOL

[bobbyg67]

put bone bridge pins in a martin d-18 to replace the plastic ones it came with and it sounded brighter and not as warm to me. put the plastic back in.

[hat]

I appreciate the input. To answer a few questions, the guitar is one I made. Old growth Indian RW with a Sitka top - Scalloped braces forward shifted, but not as far as HD/Authentic specs. Prior to the saddle change it had a great bass, not booming but loud and pronounced. It seemed well balanced across the stings. Why did I change the saddle? Well, I guess because conventional wisdom says that bone is better. Bridge pins are ebony. Strings are D'Adarrio EJ17's med phosphor bronze. I can't tell if I lost some bass, or if the brightness is just masking it. I'll play it some more this evening and see what I think.

[rokdog49]

I think we all “hear” things from time to time that aren’t necessarily consistent from day to day. In light of that, we try to make “improvements” by changing stuff. Not a thing wrong with it and I’ve done it myself. It does make me pause for a moment and ask myself the obvious. “If I’m hearing something I don’t like, why didn’t I hear it when I auditioned the guitar?”
Too many answers to that question.

[Wade Hampton]

Tom, there isn't one saddle material that will sound the best on every single guitar out there. I know some folks think bone is always the best, and I do prefer having bone saddles on most of my instruments.

However, on some guitars bone can sound very harsh. I first noticed this in 1998 when I got a Larrivée OM-03W, which is an OM with black walnut back and sides. It came stock with a Graphtech saddle, the same material that Graphtech later dubbed as "Tusq." I had my guitar repairman make a bone saddle for it, because that's what I just always did back then.

But the bone saddle made the guitar sound brittle and harsh; it went from sounding great to sounding awful.

The Tusq saddle went back in, and has stayed in ever since.

That was the first time that happened to me, but not the last, and I've since developed a protocol: if a bone saddle sounds too harsh, I try Tusq, and if Tusq is still too harsh I put in a micarta saddle.

That process seems to work pretty well.

So, yes, sometimes bone is not the best choice for the saddle material on some guitars. This isn't your imagination, and many of us have encountered the exact same situation.

Hope this helps.


Wade Hampton Miller

[dbintegrity]

I have found bone can make a guitar sound bright. I prefer ivory, It is softer and a little warmer in tone

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars

Before you switch back, There are a few other possibilities that might help out. Changing out bridge pins first, is certainly a cheap and fun experiment. There is a world of different wood bridge pin materials that will possibly gently subdue-tame some of the high end harshness you are hearing.

Try Cocobola Bridge pins from LMII for only $8.38 and shipping is free I believe.
https://www.lmii.com/bridge-pins-and...-set-of-6.html
Or even Indian Rosewood for even less at $5.49
https://www.lmii.com/bridge-pins-and...-set-of-6.html
Not much to loose if it does not work for you.

I am one of the few that believes that the Nut also makes a difference in tone. Possibly what you are hearing could be that Micarta and or Tusc may not work well with bone combinations. I have not done that much testing in this area, however I believe that Synthetic materials tend to project more fundamentals, and bone tends to let more overtones or harmonics. It may just be that both Nut and saddle & pins needs changing at the same time. Certainly a much, much more expensive endeavor of course.

And finally, sometimes it takes time to understand the new tone. By this I mean it is sometimes a simply adjustment of where you pluck the note on in relation to the soundhole. And inch or two in either direction can make quite a difference in tonality. Even when you change to a new brand of strings, sometimes it takes a day to adjust-understand the new tone you are hearing and how to play with that tone.

What ever the final results, enjoy the experience of experimenting. ( I might have to make that my tag line "Enjoy the Experience of Experimenting" LOL

Originally Posted by bobbyg67

put bone bridge pins in a martin d-18 to replace the plastic ones it came with and it sounded brighter and not as warm to me. put the plastic back in.

It's a complex subject... or a better term would be "compound" subject. And defining "bright" is the difficult because brightness can be heard from a few different things and a few different ways. Is the brightness from an imbalance of the high strings projecting too much? Is the brightnes coming from increased overtones/harmonics? Is the brightness coming from increased sustain in overtones/harmonics or quicker decay of fundamentals?

Then, of course, the bone material itself is not as consistent as other materials. Some bone samples might in fact make for brighter sounds of some sort. And perhaps your favorite set of strings may not work as good with on saddle as opposed to another. Are both saddles in a comparison the exact same height?

What I've discovered with bridge pins is that it doesn't change the fundamental tone of a guitar, but different bridge pin materials affect the balance of fundamentals vs overtones/harmonics and the how the sustain and decay of both elements are affected. In the case of my Taylor 910 which by nature is on the bright side, came with ebony bridge pins. But with many strings the excessive sustain of the harmonics will muddy up the clarity of the attack. Switching to bone pins (for most string sets) dries up the excess harmonics and makes for a more pleasant sound. I also suspect that the TUSQ saddle that it came with would sound better with some sets of strings. But my experience with this guitar, with the bone saddle and bone pins, control the brightness, giving it a rich, deep sound.

Now add in the pick or fingers that you'll use for the attack for another layer of compound complexity. It's all co-dependent.