Boutique flat top all laminates?

[Bax Burgess]

Is there such an animal, other than the Classical honeycombed double-top?

[Bax Burgess]

I ask this question, having in my possession some special sounding laminate tops, some old, some new. My dream guitar would be, say, a Collings quality lam top, which I could play in a wider humidity range. A wistful hope.

[printer2]

Is there a radius to the top, and if so was it put in when gluing (if you know)?

[Bax Burgess]

On two recent OMs and one GC, there is a slight radius. On two vintage parlors and one recent parlor, no radius.

[redir]

I never heard of such an animal. I have herd some all laminate guitars that sound descent enough though, especially in the right hands.

[LouieAtienza]

A few archtop makers build some laminated top and back guitars...

[eddykirk]

Hey I was just thinking of posting this today when I just saw this thread. I was going to see how others fare in this. I feel very fortunate to have laminated wood guitars that meet and beat other solid woods. I feel get the sound and also more structure reliability in lams. I have a 70's -ish Japanese Kiso-Suzuki dreadnought lam that appears to copy the Martin D35 dred with the 3 piece back.. This guitar tone leaves me wanting nothing. It booms. I'd spend 4 or 5K to beat the sound. And the action is still terrific. I have a peerless New Yorker archtop which is a lam. A very nice thumpy jazz box that I like playing unplugged. Peerless then made the Monarch which is same style but with solid woods and I bought one. I sent it back because it didnt sound as good as my lam...due to them putting a post between the top and back for strength. Anyways, add to the equation a lower resale value, and what I end up with is guitars I wont sell, pleased playing and peace of mind.

[LouieAtienza]

The original Selmer Maccaferri and Petit Bouche guitars have laminated backs and sides...

[cobalt60]

In an older interview, Robert Ruck mentioned that he'd built laminate tops that used Spruce and Cedar thin plys, no Nomex, and polyurethane glue (not water based).

Is that relevant to what you're asking?

[Bax Burgess]

The Classical double tops (Nomex) I am not including here, because I've gathered (from reading alone) that their notable projection dominates the other aural characteristics. I'm familiar with fine examples of Yamaha's wood laminated nylon and steel guitars from the early 70s. Additionally,what has impressed me are the recent Indonesian and Chinese made cheapies with the mystery filler - a guitar shop dealer, from whom I built my collection, refers to it as SPAM (mystery meat). I just picked up a mystery meat Epiphone DR-100 NA, which has scalloped bracing, a very impressive $100-130 US guitar, for its soundbox alone, that's as far as I'll rave. Whether my other all laminates have scalloped bracing or not, I don't know offhand - Epiphone makes a point of mentioning it. In sum, I'd rather have a very high quality all laminate that would give me confidence that its construction and materials would hold up over time, and looked high class as well.

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by Bax Burgess

The Classical double tops (Nomex) I am not including here, because I've gathered (from reading alone) that their notable projection dominates the other aural characteristics. I'm familiar with fine examples of Yamaha's wood laminated nylon and steel guitars from the early 70s. Additionally,what has impressed me are the recent Indonesian and Chinese made cheapies with the mystery filler - a guitar shop dealer, from whom I built my collection, refers to it as SPAM (mystery meat). I just picked up a mystery meat Epiphone DR-100 NA, which has scalloped bracing, a very impressive $100-130 US guitar, for its soundbox alone, that's as far as I'll rave. Whether my other all laminates have scalloped bracing or not, I don't know offhand - Epiphone makes a point of mentioning it. In sum, I'd rather have a very high quality all laminate that would give me confidence that its construction and materials would hold up over time, and looked high class as well.

A bit of nomenclature - "laminates" as referred to in the industry, refer to paper based material bonded under pressure with a phenol resin, usually with a decorative print on a layer of paper, coated with melamine; a.k.a. Formica. Thin layers of wood bonded together, uni-directional, are referred to as "laminations." Thin layers laid up cross grain is referred to as "plywood." I really believe some big players in the guitar industry had purposely created confusion with this.

The other point is that comparing classical and steel string construction is tough, because, as I mentioned in another thread, the makers of each go through opposite thought processes to achieve the same goal - balance between lows and highs. In the classical, the bass is predominant and stiffness, bracing, and other things are done to increase treble response. With the steel string, the trebles are predominant and the goal is to increase bass response, while maybe attenuating some of the harsh highs.

That off my chest, the one concern with any "plywood" guitar is the quality of the glues used to bond the layers. Which is what gives the plywood its strength in the long grain (show) direction. I have a couple plywood-topped guitars, whose tops deformed over time, so there's no guarantee of long-term stability. They do stay flat across the grain, because across the grain is really along the grain in the middle, which makes up the majority of the thickness, almost 3/4 of it maybe more.

Aside from Robert Ruck, Alain Bieber had also made tops of a lamination where the inner layer was at a 20 degree bias, if I remember correctly. Lowden just came out with a Jon Gomm model which has a similarly made top.

As to backs and sides, they can be as stable as plywood. The sides get locked into a series of arches, which are inherently strong, and the back is sprung into a dome, again a structurally strong configuration.

[Bax Burgess]

I'm glad for having read that. Thanks, L.

[Daddyo]

I would go Rainsong

[Bax Burgess]

Carbon fiber guitars are a fine option, no doubt, but I love fretboards made of wood, and the wooden bridge. The mystery filler, three layered, 'laminate' topped, cheapest guitars are of particular interest to me. Yamaha's plywood topped guitars, the red label Gakkis made with quality wood layers are sonically established, but what's the new stuff that sounds so good, and what will be its life expectancy - will it be long term?

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by Bax Burgess

Carbon fiber guitars are a fine option, no doubt, but I love fretboards made of wood, and the wooden bridge. The mystery filler, three layered, 'laminate' topped, cheapest guitars are of particular interest to me. Yamaha's plywood topped guitars, the red label Gakkis made with quality wood layers are sonically established, but what's the new stuff that sounds so good, and what will be its life expectancy - will it be long term?

There are Martins that survived 175 years, so I don't think having a solid versus laminated or plywood top would be a factor in terms of longevity. In other words, I don't see plywood or laminated tops as having better longevity or durability. I've encountered more than a few plywood-topped guitars that had developed a belly behind the bridge, but all I believe from improper storage. The cross-grain nature of the inner layer leaves a very distinct belly behind the bridge.

Also, remember sounding "good" is a subjective thing. I've played quite a few plywood topped guitars that I thought sounded good, but not exceptional, and definitely not as good as the good solid-wood topped guitars I've played. But it's likely there's something in the timbre of the plywood-topped guitar that works well with your playing style or repertoire. I find they can be good in a mix where a more percussive, rhythmic sound is wanted because they seem to have a pretty flat response with not much color to the tone, to my ears.