Truss rods and CF guitars

[steelvibe]

I've heard a lot of folks that own CF guitars without truss rods that are pretty confident that the necks of their guitars have never moved (even Rainsong claims that truss rods are not "needed" but are merely a feature based on owner preferences for action adjustments). Anyone been an owner of any such guitars that can provide feedback?

[Doubleneck]

I have had two guitars without truss rods a CA Legacy and a Emerald Doubleneck. Both had neck relief that was normal and I have had no issues. I think they can move slightly with heavier strings. I have two Rainsings with truss rods. I adjusted them slightly cause I could. I am happy with both options. I do like the light hollow necks of the Chimera. To me its not a deal breaker either way.

[steelvibe]

Interesting. I use either light or medium strings, and when using mediums I drop everything a full step. You don't find it difficult to switch back and forth between the low profile necks and the NS on your Parlor?

[mchalebk]

I've never seen any evidence that any CF guitar without a truss rod has experienced geometry changes that a truss rod could adjust for. My oldest CF guitar is a 2006 CA Vintage Performer (dreadnought same as Legacy) and there is no evidence of any changes whatsoever. I think the key is that CF is so strong, string tension simply doesn't cause any permanent change. Heavier strings can increase relief on some models, but it seems they always go back to the original relief with original strings.

[steelvibe]

Originally Posted by mchalebk

I've never seen any evidence that any CF guitar without a truss rod has experienced geometry changes that a truss rod could adjust for. My oldest CF guitar is a 2006 CA Vintage Performer (dreadnought same as Legacy) and there is no evidence of any changes whatsoever. I think the key is that CF is so strong, string tension simply doesn't cause any permanent change. Heavier strings can increase relief on some models, but it seems they always go back to the original relief with original strings.

Do you use alternate tunings on that guitar?

[Earl49]

Originally Posted by steelvibe

when using mediums I drop everything a full step

Light gauge strings at regular E-E tuning have almost the exact same overall tension as medium gauge tuned D-D. I do this all the time. And yes, I play the Rainsong WS-1000 in a variety of alternate slack-key tunings, some low, some with higher strings. Sometimes it sits for a while in an alternate tuning, and other times I change it on the fly between songs. I have never noticed any change in neck geometry.

[Doubleneck]

Originally Posted by steelvibe

Interesting. I use either light or medium strings, and when using mediums I drop everything a full step. You don't find it difficult to switch back and forth between the low profile necks and the NS on your Parlor?

Not sure I understand the question?

[mchalebk]

Originally Posted by steelvibe

Do you use alternate tunings on that guitar?

I do a fair amount of drop D, double drop D and DADGAD, but mostly standard tuning. Don't really see what this would have to do with it, though, unless the alternate tunings are putting significantly more stress than standard tuning (i.e. open E). CF is really, really strong. Want some proof? Take a look at this 36 string monster:



With wood, it would implode, explode, whatever. CF handles it with no issues.

Some guitarists just can't get over the thought of a guitar without a truss rod. If you're one of those guys, stick with RainSong or Emerald. However, there is no evidence I've ever seen that shows a CF guitar ever changed its geometry over time and there are plenty of CF guitars over 10 years old (probably not too many 15 years old, though).

[jdinco]

Wow...what a beast ! Thanks for posting that pic.

[Mr. Ed]

Originally Posted by steelvibe

I've heard a lot of folks that own CF guitars without truss rods that are pretty confident that the necks of their guitars have never moved (even Rainsong claims that truss rods are not "needed" but are merely a feature based on owner preferences for action adjustments). Anyone been an owner of any such guitars that can provide feedback?

I own a Rainsong OM1000 with the N1 (original neck). It does not have a truss rod. And, in my opinion, is the absolute best neck RS makes. Fits my hands perfectly. Very fast and easy to play. I've tried all kinds & weights of strings. Zero affect on the neck. No need for a truss rod.

[steelvibe]

[QUOTE=Doubleneck;3821839]Not sure I understand the question?[/QUOTE

Maybe I'm assuming, but you list the guitars you own. This means that you have undoubtedly some low profile necks, but your Parlor has an NS neck right? The guitars without a truss rod, like the Chimera have a lower profile than the NS on the Parlor, which does have a truss rod. But you play both and I'm just wondering how much of an adjustment it takes to go back and forth between the profiles. I did jump from one topic to the other- the thread was about truss rods on CF guitars and I mentioned strings. I sometimes tune UP beyond a strings maximum tension and was wondering if that would affect neck relief on a guitar without a truss rod, or heavier string guages.

[mchalebk]

Tuning up or using heavier strings can cause the relief to increase slightly. How much would depend on the guitar and how much increased tension there was. However, as soon as the extra tension was removed, the relief would return to normal.

For what it's worth, I use John Pearse New Medium strings, which are between light and medium. I notice absolutely no difference in the relief on either my CA Vintage Performer or GX.

[Doubleneck]

[QUOTE=steelvibe;3822035]

Originally Posted by Doubleneck

Not sure I understand the question?[/QUOTE

Maybe I'm assuming, but you list the guitars you own. This means that you have undoubtedly some low profile necks, but your Parlor has an NS neck right? The guitars without a truss rod, like the Chimera have a lower profile than the NS on the Parlor, which does have a truss rod. But you play both and I'm just wondering how much of an adjustment it takes to go back and forth between the profiles. I did jump from one topic to the other- the thread was about truss rods on CF guitars and I mentioned strings. I sometimes tune UP beyond a strings maximum tension and was wondering if that would affect neck relief on a guitar without a truss rod, or heavier string guages.

You are correct I do have necks with lower profiles than the Rainsong NS or N2. It really is not a problem going back and forth. The NS,N2 is fuller than I like, probably the N1 or the Emerald necks are my ideal. But I have said before its not a deal breaker for me. I like how the NS feels going up the neck, it a good neck just the profile is full, to me kind of fits the Jumbo and seems a little out of place on the parlor? But that's me. I fully understand why carbons are going to truss rods. That said I love my hollow neck Chimaera, it is my ideal, so light and playable.

[steelvibe]

[QUOTE=Doubleneck;3822849][QUOTE=steelvibe;3822035]

But I have said before its not a deal breaker for me. QUOTE]

Yeah, you have mentioned that before now that I think of that. I really would like to get my hands on a Parlor having played the Shorty. I'm a fingerstyle player that tends to like the folky more Nashville tuning type stuff when using alternate tunings. That being said, I tune up at times and would just like the versitality of having a truss rod built in. If I ever had a second carbon fiber I would likely go for a CO-JM1000N2. I love the huge sound from the JM1000 but think I would like the warmth from the top better for my style of playing. I also LOVED how comfortable that guitar sat on my lap considering it's size. I just couldn't believe it was a jumbo body- I'm sure you know exactly what I'm talking about. I would likely use it for songs I play that are tuned below D. They do seem to hold up really well in those tunings and David Wilcox and Erik Mongrain have done (Erik tunes down the low E all the way to A at times but I'm not sure what guage of strings he is using).

Thanks for chatting with me about it.

[Finger Stylish]

Originally Posted by steelvibe

I've heard a lot of folks that own CF guitars without truss rods that are pretty confident that the necks of their guitars have never moved (even Rainsong claims that truss rods are not "needed" but are merely a feature based on owner preferences for action adjustments). Anyone been an owner of any such guitars that can provide feedback?

I am a finger style player, and play several styles, Travis, Atkins, as well as Contemporary folk style picker singers and the 5 string banjo.
Having a truss rod is beneficial to me as I rarely capo beyond the 3rd fret(except on banjo). Also having the ability to adjust the pitch angle gives great flexibility for style change and tuning down.
I can't see a rod being as important on a short scale unless there is a problem with the guitar to begin with.
With Guitars in General, My non-rod Martin is set up with the same string gauge for 35 + years. My other axes all are adjustable for sound, style, and play-ability.
If the non-rod carbons are solid enough to change personality without buzzing or sinnnnnnnnnnnnnnnging sounds; That's very impressive.
Rods are like spare tires to a large group of guitar owners. They have never been touched.