If Taylor's V-bracing is all that and a bag of chips

[AcousticDreams]

Originally Posted by LakewoodM32Fan

I would use the word "clinical" to describe it. When I took it along on my audition trip to try out boutique builders for the first time, it got traded in for my SCGC OM which was way more lively and exciting, if less "clinically perfect" than the 914ce. The OM just had that inspiring tone that made me want to play it more.

This Tuesday I was at a local shop to buy a D-18 MD. Since I was there and he had some Taylor Koas, I asked to try the three high end models he had, a K14ce v-class, a K14c v-class (no ES2), and a 2017 x-braced K24ce all koa. The K24 was a wonderful surprise, but just a little darker than the tone I was looking for, but it proved that x-braced Taylors are nothing to sneeze at.

I picked up the K14ce and was immediately reminded of my 914ce. Clinically perfect. Nothing exciting. I had brought my OM as a reference tone, and confirmed that it was still the superior (in that it was more pleasing and inspiring to me) instrument. I debated even picking up the K14c because it was exactly the same model without the ES2. Well, I was here, why not.

From the first strum it was apparent that this may be the single best Taylor I'd ever heard. It projected so well it felt like it activated every guitar on the wall. I called the shop owner out from the back and asked if he would listen to the two back to back. I strummed the K14ce and he nodded, as if to say "yup, that's classic Taylor sound." His jaw (masked, but I could see the movement) dropped and his eyes widened when I strummed the K14c once, careful to use the same force to the best of my ability.

We talked about why there might be this discrepancy. Lack of ES2 wouldn't explain it, a pickup install shouldn't affect tone this much. This was so much superior to the ce version. Way better projection. Sweeter mids and highs presentation. The top was activated/vibrated so much more with the same strum.

Really enjoyed your Story-Adventure Lakewood32Fan.

I would like to add that the tone difference between between your two K14's might just be the difference between Pickup verses non pickup. From the Taylor website "The heart of the ES2 is Taylor’s patented behind-the-saddle pickup,"

I have been making very accurate saddles now for a couple of years. I learned From a very Dear friend of mine, a 35 year Luthier with thousands of guitars under his belt told me "the importance of a Saddle sitting perfectly flat in the Bridge saddle groove."

I have always suspected that an under the saddle pickup interferes with transmission of the saddle to the soundboard. After all it is not a hard surface and bendable?

With that being said...individual guitars made with the same woods can sound different.

Originally Posted by WordMan

-
- Taylors and their “modern” voicing are constructed *very* differently from Martins, Gibsons, and most other makers. They have their tops and backs under a bit of stress in the build. This type of build places *much* more emphasis on the design vs. the wood type used, which is why Taylors sound so darn consistent, and why the other makers’ guitars reflect more of the woods used.

I did not know that about Taylors. Very interesting that they are built under stress and that Back and sides make less of a difference.

There are some high end luthiers that build laminated guitars..back and sides.. They claim that only the top makes the sound difference with their particular building style.

[LakewoodM32Fan]

I won't pretend to know how much (or little) the ES2 could affect the tone. I had a B-Band A2.2 installed in my Lakewood M32 a while ago and I don't recall it affecting tone much, but I will admit I never A/B'd it via say a high quality recording, and memory can be a tricky thing.

But this K14c is so much better than the K24c...if pickups affected tone this much then they all should be thrown into a pit and burned.

It's likely a cumulative effect of all those things: no pickup to mess with the saddle/bridge contact. No inside electronics/circuit board to alter air movement inside the guitar. The person who selected the tonewoods was either very skilled or very lucky. Etc., etc.

As I said, I've had more than my share of "meh" moments with a previously owned 914ce v-class and quite a few others I've pulled off of the walls of my shops to suddenly think this one guitar has vindicated the changeover. I'm not rushing to find more Taylors either. One is not a trend, it's an exception, so I'm even more glad now that I picked it up.

[Iain1231]

I'm certain it have got to do with the woods used. Even among similar woods, there are variations in density. Being a BTO, I guess they had the liberty of choosing the woods from the Wood Pile. I wonder if the upcharge for the BTO is worth it considering its an omission from a production model

[LakewoodM32Fan]

Originally Posted by Iain1231

I'm certain it have got to do with the woods used. Even among similar woods, there are variations in density. Being a BTO, I guess they had the liberty of choosing the woods from the Wood Pile. I wonder if the upcharge for the BTO is worth it considering its an omission from a production model

That’s the double bonus, and why I listed it as “pseudo custom”. It was a BTO by the dealer, who is one of the larger Taylor dealers, so it actually was $200 cheaper than the ce version. So I got the better sounding guitar for cheaper! Every year he orders a small number without electronics and I just happened to stumble into it!

[Dickey Clapton]

I never pass up the chance to try out the Taylor line. I have a 2015 Taylor 824ce x brace-love it and keeps sounding better. The many v braces that I have played ALL have sounded great, all virtually brand new with limited play time/ageing effect, and the typical effects of some previous players body chemistry/acidity effect on the strings. I salute the Taylor brand company and employees for outstanding quality and corporate philosophy s!!!

[WordMan]

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars

I did not know that about Taylors. Very interesting that they are built under stress and that Back and sides make less of a difference.

Look for posts/threads from master luthier Bruce Sexauer - he writes about how different approaches to construction vary. His basic point (I *think*) is that if you build a box with the pieces slightly flexed/under tension, that structure is the main tone definer outside of top bracing. If you build a “relaxed box” (??) the wood type and other aspects of construction have much more bearing on tone.

[zmf]

Originally Posted by mcduffnw

I don't think V Class Bracing is/was a marketing strategy. I think V Class Bracing was a production efficiency/cost reduction strategy that Taylor built a marketing strategy around to help sell it as a ground breaking innovation...which it really isn't.

If you look at it, it is a very simple, nearly one piece design that can easily be pre-manufactured in large quantities, and installed on the guitar with extreme production efficiency, much more so than the APCV Deluxe X bracing pattern which takes much more production time to make and install per unit of production {;-).

Enticing theory. I too was positively inclined towards some of Powers' earlier mods to the Taylor line.

But if I were to be swayed, I'd have to a assume a massive amount of cynicism on the part of Taylor. The sentimental part of me doesn't want to accept that a musical instrument maker with many devotees would risk their reputation. Or maybe they figured their fans would readily buy the lie, or not care about the difference.

How much cheaper would you guess the V-bracing guitars are to produce? Are you guessing, or are there solid numbers?

[Oldguy64]

Originally Posted by Social Exodus

Then you would think the crowded field of acoustic guitar makers would follow suit wouldn't you?

I'm not for it or against it, although full disclosure all my guitars are X-braced and I have all I need. It is just fairly standard that when company A has a big breakthrough, then companies B,C..Z follow along eventually.

Let me first say that I’ve not read all the responses, so this may be a repeat.
Taylor is not the first to use a V pattern for bracing.
Pretty sure it used to be an Ovation pattern as well. At least a variation thereof.

While it’s innovative to a point, and there a couple of V-brace models that blow me away. I hope one of the by-products is a lower price on used x-braced guitars.
I would love to have an older x16 body. But I’d also like to get it reasonably inexpensively....

[gmel555]

Originally Posted by Oldguy64

........Taylor is not the first to use a V pattern for bracing......Pretty sure it used to be an Ovation pattern as well. At least a variation thereof.
....

Ovation and many classical guitars. This Ovation/Adamas top looks pretty v-like. I'm sure Taylor's version has its own mods which may or may not make it better. I've got to admit the Taylor marketing speak on V-Bracing was so over the top that eventually it just turned me off. I thought Andy P's quote -in Wood & Steel- where he said he could "FINALLY play a 12-string that was in tune" was unworthy of a master luthier to say (ask any Guild 12-string lover). And I looked at my own X-braced Taylor 752ce (12-string) and thought, "gee I guess I have bad ears because it sounds really nice to me."

[Oldguy64]

Originally Posted by gmel555

Ovation and many classical guitars. This Ovation/Adamas top looks pretty v-like. I'm sure Taylor's version has its own mods which may or may not make it better. I've got to admit the Taylor marketing speak on V-Bracing was so over the top that eventually it just turned me off. I thought Andy P's quote -in Wood & Steel- where he said he could "FINALLY play a 12-string that was in tune" was unworthy of a master luthier to say (ask any Guild 12-string lover). And I looked at my own X-braced Taylor 752ce (12-string) and thought, "gee I guess I have bad ears because it sounds really nice to me."

True enough.
My “lowly” g-series Takamine plays and stays in tune.
I’m not “enough” player to really see the difference in V-bracing.
I’m not nearly impressed enough to go chasing that tone.

[Br1ck]

The real genius in the Taylor story has been in manufacturing design and efficiency, plus targeting the electric player early on. So I always look at what Taylor does from that perspective. Later they built a marketing juggernaut. All this while building a guitar a lot of folks like.

That is why I suspect v bracing to be a manufacturing innovation more than a design innovation. The design was not original to Taylor. So if you have a company that makes 100,000 units, and can save $20 an instrument, that is $2,000,000 added to the bottom line. That they can do this while making the change opinion neutral, half like it, half don't, but not enough to change brands, it's a business success. Bob Taylor is a manufacturing genius.

This takes nothing at all away from guitars people love to play, but they could hardly market the change as a business move, could they?

[leew3]

I'm surprised this hasn't been discussed on the forum before, like once a month.for.two.years. I think the OP is a Russian bot trying to distract us from the really vital issues of humidification and string change intervals.

[LakewoodM32Fan]

If v-bracing was purely either a manufacturing or a marketing move, I ask this: Why start it out on the most expensive guitars in your lineup? The people who either a) have the most discerning ears (or tastes) and b) are the most likely to scrutinize any major change...they live in this price range.

If it's truly just to save money: debut it everywhere, all at once. Or start it at the bottom lines, where the greatest savings would be realized, as they move way move 4xx series and below than they do 9xx and Presentation Series. And the majority of those won't care about the bracing.

Instead, Powers & Co. chose to start at the 9xx and Presentation series. Which accounts for a tiny percentage of their sales, while also including their most discerning owners.

Again, I've played only one v-class that inspired me (and I now own it) vs. a lot that didn't, so I'm no v-class fanboy. But if it truly were just marketing and manufacturing considerations, starting it out on the 9xx/Presentation series and opening yourself up to the most critical owners was a terrible strategic decision.

I don't think Powers & Co. made that mistake. I think they truly feel like v-bracing makes a positive difference and wanted to start with their flagship lines. We may feel otherwise about its benefits, but I genuinely believe Powers thinks the guitars he makes with v-class bracing are better than the ones he made withou it.

And who knows, we may change our tune later. Or they may refine the design later to suit more peoples' tastes. Think of all the different designs and materials that go into various iterations of x-bracing.

Remember: Apple bombed with the Newton in 1993. If you don't know what it is, google it. It's the iPad's great-great-granddaddy (in tech years time). You can flop on your first effort, only to get it right down the line.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by LakewoodM32Fan

If v-bracing was purely either a manufacturing or a marketing move, I ask this: Why start it out on the most expensive guitars in your lineup? The people who either a) have the most discerning ears (or tastes) and b) are the most likely to scrutinize any major change...they live in this price range.

If it's truly just to save money: debut it everywhere, all at once. Or start it at the bottom lines, where the greatest savings would be realized, as they move way move 4xx series and below than they do 9xx and Presentation Series. And the majority of those won't care about the bracing.

Instead, Powers & Co. chose to start at the 9xx and Presentation series. Which accounts for a tiny percentage of their sales, while also including their most discerning owners.

Again, I've played only one v-class that inspired me (and I now own it) vs. a lot that didn't, so I'm no v-class fanboy. But if it truly were just marketing and manufacturing considerations, starting it out on the 9xx/Presentation series and opening yourself up to the most critical owners was a terrible strategic decision.

I don't think Powers & Co. made that mistake. I think they truly feel like v-bracing makes a positive difference and wanted to start with their flagship lines. We may feel otherwise about its benefits, but I genuinely believe Powers thinks the guitars he makes with v-class bracing are better than the ones he made withou it.

And who knows, we may change our tune later. Or they may refine the design later to suit more peoples' tastes. Think of all the different designs and materials that go into various iterations of x-bracing.

Remember: Apple bombed with the Newton in 1993. If you don't know what it is, google it. It's the iPad's great-great-granddaddy (in tech years time). You can flop on your first effort, only to get it right down the line.

Are you attempting to sneak common sense and logic into this ?

Next you'll be asking exactly how Taylor would actually save anything remotely close to $20 per guitar in overall manufacturing costs, by retooling and switching to V bracing ?

[keenans93093]

My thought process is basically this. They know that a new bracing pattern shift won't just go over smoothly across the line. They start things like this on the models guitarists A. Lust over, B. Are already not sold in high volume and C. Are played by guitarists whom we aspire to imitate. If it doesn't catch at all, the instrument will be discounted and priced NOS. If people see this on these flagship models, then it also becomes natural to want that on a model you may be compromising for. I think they do the same thing with the striped ebony fretboards. It's another cash saver/can be boasted as taking sustainable measures for future wood. If these were introduced on the 2 series or even on 3 or 4 series. They might not fly and they would have much more to lose as well as then having to discount more guitars in their affordable range.