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  #1  
Old 09-24-2020, 11:30 AM
no1i no1i is offline
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Default Listen to Luthier?

Bought a guitar, and just to let you guys know it sounds and feels amazing, but wanted to get it checked out anyways by my luthier. My guy comes back and says it needs a neck reset.

Just want to know if you guys in general always listen to your luthier? I just can't seem to understand why it would need one if it sounds and feels great. A bit angry about it since it's a guitar I recently bought from a trustworthy seller.
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  #2  
Old 09-24-2020, 12:52 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Like every other human endeavour, there are people who are good at that endeavour and people who are not so good. It is often difficult to distinguish between the two.

The time to get a neck rest is when the string height over the fingerboard is higher than you want and there is no further room for adjustment - nut, saddle and neck relief - to lower it.

To obtain a clear sound, the strings need a minimum angle that they break over the saddle. Alan's work suggests 6 degrees is the minimum. Insufficient break angle can cause buzzing and unclear notes. If you have the minimum necessary break angle AND you have your desired playing action, a neck reset isn't necessary - now.

As guitars age, many - though not all - guitars undergo a permanent change in their geometry that raises the string height relative to the fingerboard. After one runs out of sufficient adjustment to lower the string height to counter that change in geometry, the usual solution is to change the angle the neck makes with the body - a neck reset. Doing so restores a desirable string height and provides further room for adjustment. While a specific guitar is not in need of a neck reset now, it might need one in the future. In some cases, a guitar can be setup as desired but have no further room for future adjustment to lower it to counteract anticipated future changes in geometry. In such cases, a repair person might suggest having a neck rest done, though one isn't necessary now.

The obvious question is why does the luthier think that a neck reset is required if it plays now the way you want it to? He or she should be able to provide you with his or her reasoning. In the absence of sound reasoning - pun intended - don't have him or her do the work. You can also take it to a another repair person for a second opinion.

Last edited by charles Tauber; 09-24-2020 at 01:12 PM.
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  #3  
Old 09-24-2020, 01:04 PM
redir redir is offline
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To add just a bit more to what Charles said, if you are happy with it then leave it alone. But bear in mind that sometimes people are happy with their guitars till they take them to a good tech or luthier who sets it up and they are shocked at how much better it is too.

It's kind of like owning an old car and you are used to all it's quirkiness as it slowly progressed over time. Then you let some one borrow it and they almost ram it into someone in front of them because the breaks are so soft.

If anyone brings me a guitar in that I size up and think it needs a reset I spend a good 15 minutes showing them why. It helps a lot.

If you are able to, measure these things and report back:

What is the action at both E strings from the top of the 12th fret to the bottom of the string? You will need a good accurate ruler for doing this measurement.

What is the height of the D string measure right in front of the bridge from the guitar top to the bottom of the string?

What is the height of the saddle protrusion? You can do this measurement from the top of the bridge jsut in front of the saddle to the bottom of the D string.

Finally if you have a long straight edge (not a wooden yardstick preferably but even that is ok) place it on the center of the fretbaord running down along the line of the strings till you get to the bridge. Does the straight edge hover over the bridge a bit? Same height? Or is it below the top edge of the bridge and if so how much.
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Old 09-24-2020, 04:17 PM
Alan Carruth Alan Carruth is offline
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CharlesTauber wrote:
"Alan's work suggests 6 degrees is the minimum. "


To clarify: the experiment I did on that used a mechanical 'plucker', which caused the string to move perfectly perpendicular to the soundboard. In that case 6 degrees of break is enough: the string can't move down in the vertical direction, and won't hop off the saddle top when it moves up.

In a normal pluck there will always be some string motion across the top, and this could cause the string to slide or roll on the top of the saddle. In that case the string would not 'see' the saddle top as a stationary point. The vibrating length would not be well defined, and neither would the string pitch. Woodhouse showed in an article in the European Acoustics Society journal that this can happen with fretted strings.

In normal use, then, you need to have more than six degrees of break angle on the saddle. I did not do any experiments on that aspect of things, and can't say for sure just how much is 'enough'. I strongly suspect that 12 degrees will usually do, but some folks use a quarter for a flat pick and play about 1" in front of the saddle, so I can't guarantee it. As with the 'correct' amount of relief or action height this may not be a one-size-fits-all situation. I'm pretty sure 15 degrees will do, and you almost certainly don't need more than 25.

Keep in mind that the tipping force on the saddle top, which can break out the front of the bridge slot, increases fast as the break angle goes up.
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Old 09-24-2020, 07:58 PM
tadol tadol is offline
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Your luthier may be right - technically, by the numbers, the neck may need to be reset. That does not mean that it doesn’t play great now, and may play great for decades from now too. But, if you decide to sell it, or if you discover you want the action to be a little lower, or for a variety of other possible reasons, what your luthier is going to be able to do to it will be severely restricted without re-setting the neck -

That said, unless you have a long and very trusting relationship with your luthier, I’d get a second opinion. Of course, if you had that kind of relationship, you wouldn’t be here asking for a bunch of random opinions -
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  #6  
Old 09-24-2020, 08:48 PM
mirwa mirwa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no1i View Post
Bought a guitar, and just to let you guys know it sounds and feels amazing, but wanted to get it checked out anyways by my luthier. My guy comes back and says it needs a neck reset.
Your action which is the string height over the 12th, over the first and relief is a sum of many parts.

Example lets use the number 5. 1+1+1+1+1 = 5, but also 2+1+1+1= 5, 3+2=5 and so many other variations.

So whilst yes it may need a neck reset or it may not, it may be a very minor deviation from the blueprint norm, other parts have been adjusted to accomodate for that situation, this still can give you the final correct answer.

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Old 09-25-2020, 07:22 AM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Thanks for the clarification, Alan.
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  #8  
Old 09-25-2020, 02:07 PM
D. Churchland D. Churchland is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no1i View Post
Bought a guitar, and just to let you guys know it sounds and feels amazing, but wanted to get it checked out anyways by my luthier. My guy comes back and says it needs a neck reset.

Just want to know if you guys in general always listen to your luthier? I just can't seem to understand why it would need one if it sounds and feels great. A bit angry about it since it's a guitar I recently bought from a trustworthy seller.
I have had a few instances where I'll respectfully recommend the customer talk to whomever did the neck reset.

Most recently I had a customer come in with a mid 30s L00 that needed a setup. He informed me that he had sent it out for a neck reset about 3 weeks prior. The action was 9/64 on the low E with no tension and 12/64 when tension was applied and the projection was incredibly low. If I was going to set it up for standard playing height of 5/64 on the low E it would've required shaving the saddle down to a nub. This would've totally defeated the point of a neck reset being done in the first place. I respectfully advised him to talk to the guy who did the work and work it out with him but to leave me out of the discussions.

My 2 cents is that if you like the way it plays and sounds then don't worry about it. But if it is hard to play and needs a setup right after a neck reset then that's a different story.
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  #9  
Old 09-25-2020, 05:04 PM
LeDave LeDave is offline
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How long does a new guitar last before it needs a neck reset? I heard one takes $300-$400 but my guitar retails for $429 so there's really no point unless sentimental value is in place. I hear about these horror neck reset talks, at least it sounds like horror to me. I really want to keep my only guitar in top notch working ability as long as possible.
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Last edited by LeDave; 09-25-2020 at 05:09 PM.
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  #10  
Old 09-26-2020, 05:46 AM
Skarsaune Skarsaune is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeDave View Post
How long does a new guitar last before it needs a neck reset? I heard one takes $300-$400 but my guitar retails for $429 so there's really no point unless sentimental value is in place. I hear about these horror neck reset talks, at least it sounds like horror to me. I really want to keep my only guitar in top notch working ability as long as possible.
Decades, hopefully.
Brand new guitar? If it’s built well, you won’t need a neck reset but the next owner might.
There are exceptions to every rule, of course.
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  #11  
Old 09-26-2020, 12:20 PM
Frank Ford Frank Ford is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no1i View Post
Bought a guitar, and just to let you guys know it sounds and feels amazing. . . .
Just want to know if you guys in general always listen to your luthier?
I'd make a distinction between "listening to" and "agreeing with."

And, as a luthier, I always try to listen, so if a player says it plays and sounds good, I would not disagree.




Of all the hats I wear, the one that requires the greatest depth of experience and communication is the "diagnostician hat." To be a bit more specific, the issue of neck resetting can be a complex one to discuss.

I think it can be important to convey the notion that there is a continuum between acceptable playability/setup and ideal configuration.

So, before skipping ahead to "needs a reset" I'll to engage a conversation about the player's opinion, style, needs, etc.

Not long ago I reglued a D-18 bridge that had been cut so low and slotted to the lowest possible utility, with a saddle that was hardly higher than the wood.

I talked to the owner who said he was happy playing it the way it was, and I described what we'd do to make his guitar perform to its best ability, including resetting the neck, refretting and replacing the bridge with a standard height one.

I then said if he's happy with it the way it is, there's no reason it couldn't remain that way after regluing the bridge.

His thanked me for my diagnosis and recommendation and said, "I'm 89 this year and no one in the family plays music but me. I'll leave that restoration to the next owner, whoever it may be"


Another owner might have said, "Well, let's get this one set up to its best potential."

I'll stop here, for now. . .
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  #12  
Old 09-26-2020, 07:03 PM
RonMay RonMay is offline
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Default luthier or tech ?

One of the things I have learned is that there is a huge difference between a luthier and a technician.

Simple answer, a luthier can actually build you a good guitar, a tech most likely can't.

I would get a second opinion if there's a qualified luthier available.

Ron
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  #13  
Old 09-26-2020, 07:21 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonMay View Post
One of the things I have learned is that there is a huge difference between a luthier and a technician.

Simple answer, a luthier can actually build you a good guitar, a tech most likely can't.
Likewise, many repair persons can actually do a neck reset and other repairs that many luthiers most likely can't.

They are two different sets of skills with some overlap. Some luthiers are skilled repair persons and some repair persons are skilled luthiers. Many are not both.

Quote:
I would get a second opinion if there's a qualified luthier available.
I would get a second opinion from a qualified repair person, be he or she a luthier or not.
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