harmony H165 - to X brace or not?

[hat]

Opinions please - I have recently picked up a nice old Harmony H165. 000 sized, all Mahogany - pretty decent shape. Question is, leave it ladder braced, or X brace it? What's your thoughts?

[HHP]

Guess it depends on whether you want it to sound like a Harmony or just look like one.

[Ed-in-Ohio]

Ladder for sure! Let it be what it is.
Great guitars BTW. Enjoy!

[Truckjohn]

I have played several Harmony and Kay guitars converted to X-bracing.... The end results are heavily dependent on who does the work.... Some are fantastic,
Some are not particularly good....

For me.. If the guitar is already a mess and in need of major repair - yes.. Go ahead.... It's a much better option than throwing it in the trash bin.

But if it's in fantastic, playable shape or maybe just needs a neck reset - I would not do it.

Sure - a couple years ago these were cheap with no upside value in really good shape... There were plenty laying around in closets and yard sales... Hobby folks were X-bracing, doing neck sets, replacing bridges, and refurbishing broken examples as a fun project.... And they do respond well..

But now - prices are going up and the market is paying attention...

But when you have to pay for all this from a good Luthier - you can easily drop $1,800 on the guitar + repairs + conversion.... And for that price - you are into a new (or used) D-18/J-45/514 sort of guitar...

But that's my opinion...

[printer2]

If it sounds good and you have other guitars that are X braced maybe keep it.

[bisco1]

Whether to X-brace it or not depends on what you are looking for. If the quick decay of the ladder braced tone is your goal, obviously leave it as is. But, if the richer overtones the X-brace tone moves you, then go for it.
I have X-braced maybe 10 or so of these old Harmony's, and in my opinion, a X-braced H-165 will smoke a recent OM-15. The best of these IMHO are the Silvertone branded H-621--a spruce over birch 000 model. These are absolutely wonderful. I had a Martin 000-18GE and head to head with the Silvertone it clearly did not match up. I sold the Martin, kept the Silvertone. Next best IMHO, is the H-165, then a distant third, the H-162. The H-162 mind you is not bad, but not nearly as good as the other two.
My procedure is to X-brace these in the forward shifted Martin pattern, 98 degree X-brace angle, using 1/2" tall, 1/4" scalloped braces.
BTW, every single one of these Harmony's has needed a neck reset--if yours doesn't, your lucky! The bridges are also almost always cracked unless you have the pinless bridge model. These guitars can accommodate a 2-3/8" bridge spacing if you want--2-1/4" is stock.
I hope this helps. Bill

[H165]

I have X-braced maybe 10 or so of these old Harmony's, and in my opinion, a X-braced H-165 will smoke a recent OM-15.

Agree.

The typical Harmony H165 has solid mahogany top, back, and sides. One piece back, one piece top, dovetail neck joint, fixed rectangle-section steel neck-reinforcement bar, 1 3/4" nut, strings-through bridge, Brazilian board and bridge, 25" scale. The mahogany used is at least as good as what Martin was using at the time. Often better.

I've X-braced six or seven H165s. Done right, they are the answer to the Martin "missing link" 1950s 000-17 (which, notwithstanding Martin records, apparently never existed). Super guitars.

Getting a good* original (ladder) H165 up to modern standards will also result in a fine guitar. I've done maybe ten of those. It's a whole procedure, somewhat like building a restomod car. I've posted details on forums in the past. Although Photobucket is holding the pictures hostage after the YUKU crash, you might like to review: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/theu...--t159258.html

For a ladder guitar; briefly:

Remove fretboard. Take apart neck (completely), straighten neck. If not adjustable truss rod, re-fasten reinforcement bar (I use filled epoxy). Profile neck (optional - before or after re-installing fretboard). Re-install fret board. Refinish neck if required. Take off back. If it's a 5-brace back, remove (eliminate) rearmost back brace. CAREFULLY confirm strength of glue joints on all braces. If low, remove and re-glue. Otherwise, profile the back braces. Profile the top braces. Trim to proper size or replace bridgeplate. Add Kimsey brace. Add K&K. Re-assemble body. Replace bridge with pin style. Add headstock veneer (option). Add binding (option). Add inlay (option). Set neck. Install new tuners, nut, and saddle. Dress frets. String. Complete set up. Play on.

The very minimum you need to do is re-glue the fixed neck reinforcement and reset the neck.

*The two basic H165 designs (see pics) included a few different as-built Harmony model H165 guitars and many other named and branded models. There are two basic designs: Traditional 14-fret 000, and the earlier 14 fret SJ style generally referred to as "figure 8". Each of the two had variations which resulted in a big difference in the sound. Most variations were in the bridge plate. I have worked on the following: 1. Typical maple bridge plate about the size of a mid-size Martin plate. 1. Typical maple bridge plate about the size of a large ('70s) Martin plate. 3. Spruce bridge plate about the size of a mid-size Martin plate. 4. Maple bridge plate full width of the guitar. 5. Spruce bridge plate full width of the guitar. 6. Poplar bridge plate full width of the guitar. There are also bracing variations and bracing location variations. Some later models have adjustable basic trussrods. Use TriFlow and BE CAREFUL adjusting these. The rod WILL break if you force it. There are also bridge variations.

[Looburst]

WOW, beautiful job there, H165! She looks great!

[printer2]

Originally Posted by bisco1

Whether to X-brace it or not depends on what you are looking for. If the quick decay of the ladder braced tone is your goal, obviously leave it as is. But, if the richer overtones the X-brace tone moves you, then go for it.
I have X-braced maybe 10 or so of these old Harmony's, and in my opinion, a X-braced H-165 will smoke a recent OM-15. The best of these IMHO are the Silvertone branded H-621--a spruce over birch 000 model. These are absolutely wonderful. I had a Martin 000-18GE and head to head with the Silvertone it clearly did not match up. I sold the Martin, kept the Silvertone. Next best IMHO, is the H-165, then a distant third, the H-162. The H-162 mind you is not bad, but not nearly as good as the other two.
My procedure is to X-brace these in the forward shifted Martin pattern, 98 degree X-brace angle, using 1/2" tall, 1/4" scalloped braces.
BTW, every single one of these Harmony's has needed a neck reset--if yours doesn't, your lucky! The bridges are also almost always cracked unless you have the pinless bridge model. These guitars can accommodate a 2-3/8" bridge spacing if you want--2-1/4" is stock.
I hope this helps. Bill

And a H-6341?

[bisco1]

I was not familiar with the h6341--apparently it is an all birch model. I've done one Silvertone branded all birch model, and was surprised that it was as close to spruce top one as it was. That said, IMHO, the spruce tops are superior so I would not go to the trouble of X-bracing a birch top when spruce top ones are easily obtainable at reasonable cost. Be on the alert though, I've been fooled thinking that I was buying a spruce top when in fact it was a "faux" spruce top--looked like spruce, but was birch in reality. Check inside with a mirror to make sure. Bill

[H165]

Here's some Harmony info:

http://harmony.demont.net/

The basic model number links are on the left. Basic name links to the right of the number links.

Heck of a bunny trail for Harmony enthusiasts.

[hat]

Nice work, and a nice write up H165. Mine is much like the one in the left in your photo. It has a full width maple plate in it. I have the neck off. Warp isn't bad, so I have it in a press to see if it will 'find it's self' so to speak. I've cleaned a ton of gunk off the body, and inside it. It has the pinless bridge. I think fo now it's going to remain ladder braced. I'm not a zealot, but I do believe in karma, and if this old Harmony made it this long in such good condition, maybe I should just do what I can to preserve it. If I find that I don't like the tone, I can always open it up, or find a new owner for it at that point.Question though, how did you do the finish? French polish, overspray, or ? your finished one really looks nice. Also, how hard is it to get the fretboard loose? I wouldn't mind checking the reinforcing rod, but would hate to crack or split the fingerboard in the process.

[printer2]

Originally Posted by bisco1

I was not familiar with the h6341--apparently it is an all birch model. I've done one Silvertone branded all birch model, and was surprised that it was as close to spruce top one as it was. That said, IMHO, the spruce tops are superior so I would not go to the trouble of X-bracing a birch top when spruce top ones are easily obtainable at reasonable cost. Be on the alert though, I've been fooled thinking that I was buying a spruce top when in fact it was a "faux" spruce top--looked like spruce, but was birch in reality. Check inside with a mirror to make sure. Bill

Not a lot of spruce models get sold around my neck of the woods, picked up this birch one for $20. Don't know if I will just X brace it or put a spruce top on it. Just something to work on and play with.

[Truckjohn]

Originally Posted by hat

Also, how hard is it to get the fretboard loose? I wouldn't mind checking the reinforcing rod, but would hate to crack or split the fingerboard in the process.

They come off in splinters. These old fretboards are often ebonized pear wood... They are good for what they are until you need to take them off... And then you are left with a dust pan full of wood shivers...

If you are going to do it - plan on a new fretboard...

[bisco1]

Fortunately, The H-165's, 162's and the 621's I've worked on have all had radiused Brazilian boards. A person must be careful, but using a heat blanket to warm them up, I've had good luck removing the boards--only minor damage to the fingerboards. I've always marveled how 50 years ago you got solid wood top, back and sides and a Brazilian board and bridge on a $100.00 guitar! My how times have changed. Bill