A question about guitar weight

[PhilQ]

This may be a different question, but I'm interested in any and all thoughts on this.

Is there a major contributor to a guitar's weight or is it just the accumulation of individual, perhaps slightly too big/thick/tall parts that end up making a guitar heavier? That and higher density woods, or course...

I have a 1941 J35 that is feather-light and still has a fairly chunky neck. And it's a big guitar.

I am currently building a walnut/sitka D sized guitar on which I've really pushed the boundaries (for me), making everything as thin as possible on. Scalloped braces, thin sides and back, etc. There is an adjustable rod in the neck.

No finish on the guitar yet, and it doesn't feel heavy, but still noticeably more so than the J35.

I get that the structure of the wood changes with age, but I am curious to hear opinions on what makes 30s guitars so light...

Thanks so much!

[Fathand]

Walnut is generally heavier than the mahogany that I assume your J35 is. Is your neck also being made from walnut? Yes a 2 way truss rod adds a bit of weight. I notice laminated guitars tend to feel heavier as do rosewood guitars over mahogany.

All that said, acoustic guitars are pretty light. An average D-28 is 4.68 lb. Try wearing a Mastertone banjo for a 3 hour gig at around 13 lb. or an early Les Paul at up to 12 lb.

[PhilQ]

Originally Posted by Fathand

Walnut is generally heavier than the mahogany that I assume your J35 is. Is your neck also being made from walnut? Yes a 2 way truss rod adds a bit of weight. I notice laminated guitars tend to feel heavier as do rosewood guitars over mahogany.

All that said, acoustic guitars are pretty light. An average D-28 is 4.68 lb. Try wearing a Mastertone banjo for a 3 hour gig at around 13 lb. or an early Les Paul at up to 12 lb.

I know what you mean: i toured for years playing a heavy electric guitar! I just tend to favor the feel of light acoustics over heavier ones, and all my 30s guitars are very light.

The J35 is mahogany indeed. My walnut build has a mahogany neck and spanish cedar kerfed lining. It's not laminated...

[hubcapsc]

My 1941 J-35 weighs three pounds and 12.6 ounces. A half pound
of that is probably cleats in the top ...

A fellow in West Virginia is currently making me a walnut/spruce/j-35ish
guitar. He's said things about thicknesses of his tops and finishes that
make me hope for light weight, we'll see... I hope we get to compare,
I might get mine in October...



Look at some Folkway youtube videos and Mark Stutman will talk
all about thicknesses and weights on old guitars...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FnIj-3btBc

-Mike

[Bruce Sexauer]

In traditional guitars, the largest contributor to weight is the thickness of the back and sides. From my POV many builders do not take advantage of the fact that stronger and heavier materials require less thickness to do the job correctly. There is no reason for a BRW guitar to be appreciably heavier than a mahogany guitar if one builds close to each material’s structural optimum.

The modern bolt on neck not only requires metal parts which add some weight, but since the strengths of the wood are being bypassed in favor of the fasteners, the wood itself must be bulked up to handle “point stress”. Some modern neck attachment systems appear require more than twice the wood in the neck/body join area as compared to the traditional dovetail system at its best.

And ounce here and and ounce there, pretty soon it’s a pound!

[PhilQ]

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

In traditional guitars, the largest contributor to weight is the thickness of the back and sides. From my POV many builders do not take advantage of the fact that stronger and heavier materials require less thickness to do the job correctly. There is no reason for a BRW guitar to be appreciably heavier than a mahogany guitar if one builds close to each material’s structural optimum.

The modern bolt on neck not only requires metal parts which add some weight, but since the strengths of the wood are being bypassed in favor of the fasteners, the wood itself must be bulked up to handle “point stress”. Some modern neck attachment systems appear require more than twice the wood in the neck/body join area as compared to the traditional dovetail system at its best.

And ounce here and and ounce there, pretty soon it’s a pound!

Thank you Mr.Sexauer. That brings up a very interesting aspect of this question. Experience with the materials, their characteristics and limits.

I use a glued dovetail joint for the neck and have found some of your exposés on the subject to be invaluable, by the way. But I often wondered about that aspect of bolt-on necks.

For the next build i'll try weighing all the "raw" components out of curiosity and compare with their thicknessed/planed/scraped/sanded/scalloped counterparts to compare.

[RogerHaggstrom]

And then we have the truss rod. That's heavy metal. I prefer a nice hollow and light carbon rod before adding weight and losing the sporadic benefit to be able to fine tune the neck relief.

Heavy closed tuners with metal buttons can be replaced with lightweight open tuners. I would not recommend wooden pegs as in an ancient parlor guitar, but they sure are LIGHT!

[The Bard Rocks]

Don't forget a slothead has less headstock material = less weight, especially important when it is at the end of the fulcrum.

[runamuck]

I don't know if this is relevant to your curiosity about light weight guitars but I once believed that lighter guitars sound better. It's not necessarily true.

Over a couple decades of playing both very light and very heavy guitars I see no correlation between overall weight and the quality of tone. What's most important is the thickness of the soundboard and how the bracing is carved.

Still, I prefer a lighter guitar for tactile and aesthetic reasons.

[PhilQ]

Originally Posted by runamuck

I don't know if this is relevant to your curiosity about light weight guitars but I once believed that lighter guitars sound better. It's not necessarily true.

Over a couple decades of playing both very light and very heavy guitars I see no correlation between overall weight and the quality of tone. What's most important is the thickness of the soundboard and how the bracing is carved.

Still, I prefer a lighter guitar for tactile and aesthetic reasons.

Thank you. I have played everything from light to heavy instruments over quite some time myself, and I personally have experienced more light guitars that sounded good to me than the reverse. Whether or not that was the reason they sounded better vs just a coincidence, however, I can't say for sure.

Out of the guitars I've built, I'd certainly say the same as well. The heavier ones tend to sound a bit muffled to me, and to be slightly lacking in responsiveness. Though again, I have no doubt that this isn't the case for all heavier guitars.

In any case, as you mention, the light ones sure feel better in a tactile sense.

[Robin, Wales]

I do wonder if some of the reasoning behind a guitar sounding "good" or "dead" is to do with the transfer of vibrations throughout the whole instrument.

Take the dovetail neck joint as an example. Hide glue, which goes hard and crystalline, may pass vibrations better than a glue that stays soft? Taking this to an extreme - imagine how dead a guitar would sound if you put a rubber gasket into the dovetail joint so that no vibrations passed from the neck to the body?

Similarly, oily woods are perhaps less likely to transmit vibrations as well as dry woods. Old well seasoned woods, being actually more dry and crystalline, will pass vibrations better than new, wet woods.

The above examples are not to do with the build/bracing or the amount of up and down movement a top or back may have - just the way vibrations travel through the material.

I have a quite heavily built A&L Legacy which is chiefly cherry plywood and maple neck - with a spruce top. In my opinion it is a stonkingly good transmitter of sound around the guitar but perhaps the top and back don't move up and down as freely as a lightly built guitar would?

I do wonder if this aspect of getting the string's vibrations around the whole instrument is something that's little underestimated when designing and assessing guitars?

[RogerHaggstrom]

It is very logical that hard materials pass vibrations better than soft ones. A prime example is the saddle, where soft plastic gives less volume than hard bone. At the same time, the glue joint is very thin.

What really matters is the level of craftsmanship in the joints. A good fit for all the parts of a guitar is a recipe for great sound. The glue does play a small part too; why not choose the best one? Hot hide glue. I do. After all, the guitar is the sum of all the parts, and many small improvements will add up to something you can hear.

[EZYPIKINS]

At 4.2lbs, or 1.91kg My J-185 1952RI is the lightest full-sized guitar I've ever picked up.

And the tone, well it has to be played to be believed.

[Dave Abrahamson]

Originally Posted by RogerHaggstrom

And then we have the truss rod. That's heavy metal. I prefer a nice hollow and light carbon rod before adding weight and losing the sporadic benefit to be able to fine tune the neck relief.

Heavy closed tuners with metal buttons can be replaced with lightweight open tuners. I would not recommend wooden pegs as in an ancient parlor guitar, but they sure are LIGHT!

So true. You really feel the difference when the weight is removed from the end of the neck. Must be a fulcrum point balance deal. I swapped my metal tuner buttons on my GC4 for ebony and the difference was surprising. Looks nice too.

[Guitars44me]

Originally Posted by Dave Abrahamson

So true. You really feel the difference when the weight is removed from the end of the neck. Must be a fulcrum point balance deal. I swapped my metal tuner buttons on my GC4 for ebony and the difference was surprising. Looks nice too.

Light weight buttons are a big deal! All that weight out at the end of the headstock often makes for some serious neck dive

I replace all my metal buttons and my left arm is happier for sure.

And as Bruce says, an ounce here, and an ounce there, and pretty soon you’ve got a pound…

Play on and have fun.

Paul