How good is your ear?

[Fruitloop]

With all the threads about learning by ear I'm just wondering where you're at?

[Paikon]

i cant figure out anything with my right ear...........my left ear is useless

[Silly Moustache]

Whoops - I'm the first one !

Not showing off - but for me there is no other way. I never learnt notation, and I can't do tablature (hate it). so with a guitar (etc) on my knee, I can find the key, and then the progression will (usually) be pretty obvious.

Learning about harmonising the scale helped enormously.

This works for most of the kind of music I play - but not for more complex jazz chords.

Melodies are often better worked out on mandolin as it is more logical than guitar.

[JonPR]

IMO these questions need better definition.

What does "reference music" mean? Notation or tab?

Does "without reference" from memory alone, or from an audio source with no reference? (Confusing pitch memory with perfect pitch?)

Eg, if Silly Moustache has a guitar on his knee when working out tunes, then that's a reference. One is working via relative pitch, comparing what one hears on a recording with what one can find on the guitar. (That's how I work; I answered #3, although #4 and #5 might be occasionally applicable depending on what those options actually mean.)

IOW, seems to me, there are three levels (or types) of what we might call "reference":

1. Notation, tab or chord charts. No use of ear at all required, although one could perhaps differentiate between those who take notation/tab as gospel and those who can tell (by ear) when it's wrong and are able to correct it.

2. An instrument (ie a correctly tuned one). This means working by ear from a recording - no notation or tab - using relative pitch to check notes and chords with one's instrument, by playing along either in real time or note by note (maybe using some kind of slowdown device).
(Sub-categories here might include those who use theory knowledge to help, and/or who write it out in notation or tab as well as learning to play it. IOW, learning, or transcription, or both.)
I'd guess this is how the vast majority of us work - at least when we can't find notation or tab! (And of course there would be a huge variation in how easy/hard different people find it.)

3. Working from an audio recording with no instrumental reference. Ie, being able to identify by ear what one is hearing, without checking with anything.
There are two important divisions here: relative pitch or perfect pitch.
3a: Good RP - which is what is in play in #2 above - will allow one to identify (and write out) a chord progression and possibly a melody correctly - without reference - in terms of interval relationships. IOW, one can distinguish a major chord from minor, one can tell a melodic major 3rd from a minor 3rd. What one can't do is determine the precise key or pitch. So one can hear I-IV-V; one can't tell if it's A-D-E, C-F-G, E-A-B, etc. IOW, if one was going to transcribe a melody or chord sequence this way, one would either use roman numerals, or select a random key and notate accordingly. (The key could be corrected to the original later if necessary.)
3b: Perfect pitch allows you to identify pitch and key accurately. You can hear a piece of music and know - without checking with any reference - that it's in (say) Bb, and know that the tune goes (say) D, Eb, F, G, F etc. (You may or may not use relative pitch to assist.)
So you could write it out in the right key there and then.

How much memory plays a part is another issue. Eg, trying to remember how a tune goes without real-time audio reference (or notation of course) - and with or without checking with an instrument.
This obviously depends on how familiar the tune is (how much one has heard it), not just on how good one's ear is - so IMO it's a red herring in a poll with this title.

For those without perfect pitch, there is a phenomenon known as pitch memory, which can allow non-PP folk to remember the actual key of a familiar song, give or take maybe a half-step. This may be connected with the voice, eg if you're used to singing along with a favourite recording, it seems quite likely that if you don't have the recording (maybe haven't heard it for a few days) you'd sing it in the same register, because you know how it feels. This memory of pitch could also work purely aurally, although it's harder to imagine how that might work.
Eg, I can tune a guitar to concert pitch - within a half-step - because I know that my lowest comfortable vocal note is around bottom E. I hum and tune the 6th string to my voice. It's not precise, of course; usually I end up with the guitar a little lower than concert, but within a half-step. This is not perfect pitch, which I don't have. But the same ability also allows me to identify the key of songs - often exactly, because if I think the key of a guitar song sounds around Ab-A-Bb (comparing it with my low vocal E), it's a safe guess it'll be A because guitarists tend not to choose Ab or Bb.


Sorry if this is derailing the thread, but it would be good if the OP could maybe give more detail about what each choice (beyond #1!) means - in terms of "reference" (what one checks one's hearing with, if anything).

[Bikewer]

Well, the one isn't too bad..... The other has about a 20% loss and tinnitus as well. (shooting misadventures, mostly)

However, I find that as I get older, I'm increasingly able to "pick out" melodies at least, and if I can't "hear" the chords being played, I can generally figure out something that doesn't sound too bad.

An important factor in this (according to researchers like Oliver Sacks) is not only hearing acuity, but memory.
The ability to accurately remember what you've heard.

[Fruitloop]

Very good points Jon, challenged me to think some more about the subject.
I should have been more specific, sorry for that.

All of the options are with instrument at hand. Reference is an audio recording (which can be slowed or altered). Without reference is with just the instrument. No possibility to double check you have the right notes. Obviously this only applies for tunes you know. Relative pitch is enough (perfect pitch is overrated anyway )

You are right though. After I read your post I realize I should have given this some more thought.

[BluesBelly]

Don't know where I stand as to the issues of perfect pitch or pitch memory.
I can listen to a song and tell what key it's in.
I can listen to a guitar lick (lead or slide) and duplicate it in the same key.
When others sing or play I can tell if they are sharp or flat and by how much.
It is harder for me to tell sharp or flat when I sing but I can hear it in my playing which is very important when note bending.
When listening to a band or singer I can hear if the sound mix is good or bad and if bad I know exactly what the fix is.

Sometimes when my wife watches American Idol (which I boycot but can still hear) on TV I am amazed at how far off pitch the singers are and yet these people are voted as winners by the American public (supposedly) which proves Americans have a tin ear.

Didn't know for sure how to vote the poll.


Blues

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Fruitloop

Very good points Jon, challenged me to think some more about the subject.
I should have been more specific, sorry for that.

All of the options are with instrument at hand. Reference is an audio recording (which can be slowed or altered). Without reference is with just the instrument. No possibility to double check you have the right notes. Obviously this only applies for tunes you know. Relative pitch is enough (perfect pitch is overrated anyway )

You are right though. After I read your post I realize I should have given this some more thought.

That's OK, it may just mean the poll is measuring something different: ie memory . (Or how much we like to rely on our memory, instead of going back to check.)

If one's memory of the tune is not too good, then a good ear can still get the wrong notes, because a lot of incorrect notes can still sound good (musically logical).
IOW, what happens is your ear (and musical imagination) start filling in the gaps with what seems to make sense (from the general principles you know, as well as aural judgment). If the result is wrong it's not because your ear is bad - you just haven't heard the tune enough (or listened closely enough when you did) to remember it accurately.
I've done this often enough myself in the past . Sometimes I end up with something so incorrect it becomes a new composition of my own! Result!

Naturally, with a bad ear, youll probably give up way before that! (Or you might still get a lot of wrong notes that sound OK to you, but bad to anyone else - whether they know the original or not.)

BTW, I agree about PP

(Still a good thread...)

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by BluesBelly

Don't know where I stand as to the issues of perfect pitch or pitch memory.
I can listen to a song and tell what key it's in.

Without checking?
Can you do this without fail?

Originally Posted by BluesBelly

I can listen to a guitar lick (lead or slide) and duplicate it in the same key.

Straight away? Ie without hunting around for the right key?

Originally Posted by BluesBelly

When others sing or play I can tell if they are sharp or flat and by how much.

This is a bit more mixed, at least if you are talking about accompanied singing or playing. If someone is singing or playing with a band, then it's easy to tell if they are out of tune relative to the band; that's relative pitch.
Just about everyone can tell that, although only those with good relative pitch would know by how much someone is out of tune. (People with poor relative pitch will know something is wrong, but may not even know which person is out of tune, or even whether they're flat or sharp, let alone by how much.)

Do you mean if someone is singing unaccompanied, you can tell - if they are perfectly in tune with themselves - if they are sharp or flat of concert pitch?
IOW, they could be singing beautifully in tune, but (say) a quarter tone sharp of a specific concert key. So you can tell (eg), "she's singing in A major, but every note she sings is 20 cents sharp" (ie in tune with herself but out from concert).
Likewise if you hear someone playing guitar - solo, in tune with itself - you can tell "they're playing in E, but tuned down a few cents."
If this is the case, you definitely have perfect pitch. (Ie you identify the precise note or key being played, as well as how much it deviates from concert.)

Originally Posted by BluesBelly

It is harder for me to tell sharp or flat when I sing but I can hear it in my playing which is very important when note bending.

Again, this sounds more like relative pitch: comparing bent notes with a backing chord, or with the last note(s) you played.
If you can't tell if your own singing is flat or sharp, I'd guess it's highly unlikely you have perfect pitch.

Originally Posted by BluesBelly

When listening to a band or singer I can hear if the sound mix is good or bad and if bad I know exactly what the fix is.

Sometimes when my wife watches American Idol (which I boycot but can still hear) on TV I am amazed at how far off pitch the singers are and yet these people are voted as winners by the American public (supposedly) which proves Americans have a tin ear.

Yes, that's still relative pitch.
Not having PP is no drawback, of course. It sounds like you have good relative pitch, which is the essential skill.
It's also true to say that there is some overlap. A high degree of relative pitch can amount to something like perfect pitch, because of the pitch memory phenomenon.

BTW, some supposedly great singers - professional, trained - can still sound painful to some ears. Personally, I'm particularly sensitive to vibrato. To me, a wide vibrato makes singers sound as if they're going out of tune. There's a certain style of singing (often adopted by talent show performers) which features exaggerated vibrato, because that supposedly makes voices sound richer, more expressive, more - yawn - impassioned. I don't think my sensitivity to tuning is that good (not as good as some), but I find that style of singing unpleasant, even when it's in tune.
Some opera singers sound even worse to my ears, because I don't subscribe to that cultural style. I hear opera, I just have to turn it off right away, I can't stand those voices. But it's not because my musical ear is unusually sensitive; it's just "tuned" to a different cultural norm.

[dorable]

How good is my ear?

Better than it used to be... but it still needs bunches and bunches of work.

[Bern]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Some opera singers sound even worse to my ears, because I don't subscribe to that cultural style. I hear opera, I just have to turn it off right away, I can't stand those voices. But it's not because my musical ear is unusually sensitive; it's just "tuned" to a different cultural norm.

I like that...

[BluesBelly]

Jon,
After reading your above post in answer to my post it becomes clear to me that I do not have perfect pitch but have developed very good relative pitch as a result of 50+ years of exposure and intrest in music. This is a subject that I had not given much thought. I appreciate your lengthly response and will continue to explore the world of pitch for the sake of honeing my understanding of the big picture.

Thanks again,

Blues

Edit:
You wrote:
"A high degree of relative pitch can amount to something like perfect pitch, because of the pitch memory phenomenon." Which I take to mean the same as a mechanic looking at a bolt and knowing what size wrench to grab, or a carpenter knowing the correct length board to select for the cut, or even the chef who knows what to add to his creation based on taste familiarity.

[mr. beaumont]

I used to think my ear was great, then I got into jazz about 15 years ago and learned quickly it was adequate at best...I've taken lots of time to work on it since then, and I think it's pretty good now ...I can nab most melodies and chord voicings no problem--however I'm definitely better at picking out exact voicings on guitar...for piano or going from a big band recording, I'm much more likely to get chord function and if there's a strong melody on top or strong voice leading within.

my ear work is also infludnced by my understanding of functional harmony, so tunes that eschew that can throw me a curveball, I.e. Wayne Shorter tunes.

I also imagine I'd have a tough time discerning alternate tunings that didn't have some clear intervallic thing going on...I don't know, never had to try.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Fruitloop

With all the threads about learning by ear I'm just wondering where you're at?

H Fl...

I didn't vote because sometimes I go entirely from memory and other times I listen to 4-5 sources of a song to make sure I've nailed the melody (or mistreated it in a friendly and pleasant manner).

Depends on the song really. If it's something from my youth, I probably go from memory, but there are times I'll cross check it to be sure some chords might not work better than those I've supplied.

[DupleMeter]

all those ear training classes in college really payed off..though I'm pretty sure I had a different opinion at the time